Unchain the Terrain - Making Greystone Tower TC open again

[Kragg]

I disagree and actually think that most find the kind of gameplay described here the very poster boy for lame gameplay. Now, I don’t really care if you do it (however, I still don’t think ganking soloers with 6-12 people are worthy of any praise) but the game and server is hardly for the worse to wall these locations off. It hurts your specific niche but is that niche really a net positive for the server? I doubt it.

This is a rather selective way of putting it. We don't specifically hunt solo players, at all. We pick an ambush site and attack what passes by. That can be solo players, groups or entire warbands. Just because we are not as mobile as regular warbands, it doesn't mean we are that different. We pick a well traveled spot and engage what comes by, including premades of all sizes.

You mention how restricting this and similar locations is a positive change for most of the players. Why? Everything else, especially cities, are already build for the melee meta. Why do those few spots (which are accesable by both sides and attackable by ranged classes) suitable for ranged classes to ambush their enemies have to be blocked off to cater to the melee classes?

[Viperstongue]

I dont have an issue with that spot, just having a hard time trying to understand how you can enjoy playing the game the way you do. Maybe you got some other activities while you sit and wait for 20min for some soloer to potentialy show up so that you can 7X snipe that person.

I personally see a big part of Roleplaying in it as well. Dwarves are known for this. Some would say that it has no place in the game, but I enjoy joining BT or finding ways to clear those places (depending on the side I play)

I disagreed with the idea that the majority find groups, or solo, of rdps turreting in a spot you cannot get to in the normal way during a fight ”fun”. I’m of the opinion that most people find it terrible gameplay and game design.

I'd say that parties of WE/WH are much more terrible and not "fun" either for murdered players. This is "by design", and not only on hard to reach towers.

Sniping is "by design" for engies/magus, and finding good spots part of this.
The thing is that I haven't seen any Magus group/party yet. Maybe due to the lore (chaos preventing coordination)

[Karast]

I dont have an issue with that spot, just having a hard time trying to understand how you can enjoy playing the game the way you do. Maybe you got some other activities while you sit and wait for 20min for some soloer to potentialy show up so that you can 7X snipe that person.

I personally see a big part of Roleplaying in it as well. Dwarves are known for this. Some would say that it has no place in the game, but I enjoy joining BT or finding ways to clear those places (depending on the side I play)

I disagreed with the idea that the majority find groups, or solo, of rdps turreting in a spot you cannot get to in the normal way during a fight ”fun”. I’m of the opinion that most people find it terrible gameplay and game design.

I'd say that parties of WE/WH are much more terrible and not "fun" either for murdered players. This is "by design", and not only on hard to reach towers.

Sniping is "by design" for engies/magus, and finding good spots part of this.
The thing is that I haven't seen any Magus group/party yet. Maybe due to the lore (chaos preventing coordination)

There are plenty of magus sniper teams with their own spots and these spots in common. There is always at least 1-2 magus in that destro PvE camp overlooking the road in TC near the huts. Many snipers actually play both order and destro and use the same spots.

For others saying "They should remove this because it is not fun for me." The same can be said of kite groups. I hate kite groups. They are not fun to play against. If a player gets kited into the pve and dies will kite groups get nerfed? Will barriers be placed blocking PvE entrances?

There needs to be room for a lot of different play-styles. Shamans are built of kiting. They are fun to play that way and it is an iconic feature of the class. Engi and magus are built to snipe. They are fun to play that way and they should be allowed to do so using terrain that everyone can access and use.

[Zhentarim]

I dont think that spot shouldve been banned but its probably very hard to get up there if you need to be mounted and a warband of engineers keep shooting at you. I think that was their reasoning for it. You need to teach that zealot Dev to jump up there and use his winds of insanity aoe knockback.

[gebajger]

First of all, I'd like to say i really don't care who killed who, this isn't about that.

There is an aspect of this whole issue that seems to be overlooked (i haven't seen anyone mentioning it).

No one ever complains about the several other BOs where melee has huge advantage.
Since we are talking about TC...crypt is a melee heaven for one.
Not only that, but what if... a melee train, or even a wb decides to hide in one of the countless buildings, tents, huts, scattered all around many flags.
Isn't that a huge melee advantage? Isn't a doorway a much better chokepoint than anything around those ruins at kinschel's (not to mention that you can simply take cover, walk out of range near most of these sniper nests)?
Are we really balancing here?

[wonshot]

So it seems to be that everyone is overshadowing what I seem to think the devs found the logical reason for these two spots beging "overextention zone"
The spots give you a hight advantage to cover a Battleobject
Simple as that.

Yes Magus' are known for standing on top of the branches in Black Craig and other spots, but these spots are not directly covering a Battleobjective.
Predicted counter arguement: "but the crypt in Troll country is a natural funnel or melee advantage BO"
Yep, and it is clearly designed to be as such. If a Building near a Battle object requires you to makeing a jump only doable on mount, from the PVE zone to cover an RVR Battleobject. That is CLEARLY not intented to be used as covering fire. If you cant see this, sorry but you have colored glasses on.

An other few details about this tower spot at the Greystone keep BO in T2 empire trollcountry.
- You need to be mounted to get up there. Ergo can one engineer spamming aoe block any enemies trying to make the jump. (60%chance to not get dismounted on a 100g mount)
- You need to enter PVE to make this jump. That fact alone should make it pretty clear that this spot is not an intented RVR fortification to hold any battleobjectives( Note if you enter pve and jump to a spot that will give you an advantage in rvr but not covering more than a supply route or random roam i think it is an other matter and more allowed)
- This issue was not on Live because range was not as extreme, on RoR engineer and Magus can get extreme range and this opens up a can of worms for the original map designs.

So why do i think Battleobjectives make this a yey/ney arguement, well because this is campaign driven game. From standing downstairs on the flag groundtargetAoe such as Pit of shade can not reach up. The snipers up on top have the advantage of the ceiling and sideall to break Line of sight at their will whereas the people on the ground have to stand in the open being exposed.

IF people really wanted to do this next level, they would park a bunch of not flagged pve order players in the pve zone where you need to jump from, collision would kick in as destro jumpers approach and they are blocked by the not rvr flagged bodies. Can you understand how this spot is exploitable now? Just because you failed to dismount the PNP warband doesnt mean the spot is legit.

[gebajger]

So it seems to be that everyone is overshadowing what I seem to think the devs found the logical reason for these two spots beging "overextention zone"
The spots give you a hight advantage to cover a Battleobject
Simple as that.

Yes Magus' are known for standing on top of the branches in Black Craig and other spots, but these spots are not directly covering a Battleobjective.
Predicted counter arguement: "but the crypt in Troll country is a natural funnel or melee advantage BO"
Yep, and it is clearly designed to be as such. If a Building near a Battle object requires you to makeing a jump only doable on mount, from the PVE zone to cover an RVR Battleobject. That is CLEARLY not intented to be used as covering fire. If you cant see this, sorry but you have colored glasses on.

An other few details about this tower spot at the Greystone keep BO in T2 empire trollcountry.
- You need to be mounted to get up there. Ergo can one engineer spamming aoe block any enemies trying to make the jump. (60%chance to not get dismounted on a 100g mount)
- You need to enter PVE to make this jump. That fact alone should make it pretty clear that this spot is not an intented RVR fortification to hold any battleobjectives( Note if you enter pve and jump to a spot that will give you an advantage in rvr but not covering more than a supply route or random roam i think it is an other matter and more allowed)
- This issue was not on Live because range was not as extreme, on RoR engineer and Magus can get extreme range and this opens up a can of worms for the original map designs.

So why do i think Battleobjectives make this a yey/ney arguement, well because this is campaign driven game. From standing downstairs on the flag groundtargetAoe such as Pit of shade can not reach up. The snipers up on top have the advantage of the ceiling and sideall to break Line of sight at their will whereas the people on the ground have to stand in the open being exposed.

IF people really wanted to do this next level, they would park a bunch of not flagged pve order players in the pve zone where you need to jump from, collision would kick in as destro jumpers approach and they are blocked by the not rvr flagged bodies. Can you understand how this spot is exploitable now? Just because you failed to dismount the PNP warband doesnt mean the spot is legit.

If they could flip the BO or prevent it being flipped, I'd say you're right.
That is not the case.
All you have to do is take a few steps in the right direction.

[Zhentarim]

IF people really wanted to do this next level, they would park a bunch of not flagged pve order players in the pve zone where you need to jump from, collision would kick in as destro jumpers approach and they are blocked by the not rvr flagged bodies. Can you understand how this spot is exploitable now? Just because you failed to dismount the PNP warband doesnt mean the spot is legit.

That sounds like some next level thing but dont you just need a small spot to jump from anyway? Which borders into the rvr-lake. Attackers can unflag themselves in pve and get mounted to jump up there then. The solution isn't to ban areas, just make them more accessible if its really a big problem. Add like a piece of terrain so you can actually walk up there unmounted. It wouldnt make that tower useless and it wouldnt make it impossible to get into.

[Skullgrin]

You are correct, there are dozens of such spots. However, this thread is hopefully a buildup for a dialogue with the dev team that these spots add flavour the war.

Yes, and I am taking the opposing position - that the devs are correct in blocking off the areas that Glorian wants unblocked. I feel that ranged classes already have enough advantages without giving them unfair terrain exploits as well. My initial point was that if he feels that these terrain areas should be available then he should also support removing blocks (that were not in the original game) that hurt ranged classes. I very much doubt that either he or you would support removing them due to the fact that you wouldn't be able take advantage of them, even though removing them would also add to "the flavor of the war".

[Glorian]

You are correct, there are dozens of such spots. However, this thread is hopefully a buildup for a dialogue with the dev team that these spots add flavour the war.

Yes, and I am taking the opposing position - that the devs are correct in blocking off the areas that Glorian wants unblocked. I feel that ranged classes already have enough advantages without giving them unfair terrain exploits as well. My initial point was that if he feels that these terrain areas should be available then he should also support removing blocks (that were not in the original game) that hurt ranged classes. I very much doubt that either he or you would support removing them due to the fact that you wouldn't be able take advantage of them, even though removing them would also add to "the flavor of the war".

I don't use any of these rdps support fences. TM fences near Doomstriker Vein is a terrible spot to stand. And I hardly know anymore fences spots.
Fences on the keep walls in Praag was added to prevent mSH to pounce in if I am correct.

If you want them removed please make a proposal.