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2h Tank guard

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detrap
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Re: 2h Tank guard

Post#121 » Sun Jan 10, 2021 6:57 pm

nocturnalguest wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 6:00 pm
Brickson wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 5:13 pm Never played a tank under the old system. So I can't compare. But all these (not only by you) posts about 2h tanks usefull cc/utility made me curious. I can see it for KotBS. I can't really see it for IB at the moment. But I'm only looking at the probably a bit outdated career builder. So I might be missing something.
But what does a 2h SM bring to the table regarding cc/utility, that a snb SM doesn't? And what comp would need a 2h SM?
2h SM in comparsion with SnB SM brings nothing but assist dmg sacrificing alot of survivability. Actually it is gated for SnB and WW if we talk about city. For anything larger than 24 no amount of darting steel gonna save your pointy ear arse.
Same goes for IB.
An SM with 100% parry/disrupt/dodge says you are wrong.
Knight 8x - IB 8x - SM 8x / Chosen 3x - BO 4x - BG 5x

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Brickson
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Re: 2h Tank guard

Post#122 » Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:43 pm

Spoiler:
nocturnalguest wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 6:00 pm
Brickson wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 5:13 pm Never played a tank under the old system. So I can't compare. But all these (not only by you) posts about 2h tanks usefull cc/utility made me curious. I can see it for KotBS. I can't really see it for IB at the moment. But I'm only looking at the probably a bit outdated career builder. So I might be missing something.
But what does a 2h SM bring to the table regarding cc/utility, that a snb SM doesn't? And what comp would need a 2h SM?
2h SM in comparsion with SnB SM brings nothing but assist dmg sacrificing alot of survivability. Actually it is gated for SnB and WW if we talk about city. For anything larger than 24 no amount of darting steel gonna save your pointy ear arse.
Same goes for IB.

Yea, that's what I was aiming at. In comparison to a snb SM a 2h SM unfortunately doesn't add anything to a wb besides a bit of damage, for which they have to give up a lot.

Spoiler:
detrap wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 6:02 pm
Brickson wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 5:13 pm
Spoiler:
detrap wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:05 am

So since the changes there has been no reason to have a 2h BG in city? Then you say one is okay in a wb? Well if you didn't know, depending on the comp, one 2h of each tank class is needed in a web anyways for both order and Destro, so having only 1 2h BG doesn't necessarily mean something needs fixing. Knights have the worst survivability out of all the tanks with a 2h, and yet I don't have any major issue with staying alive, it's not just about spec, it's gear. If you keep dying on your BG to guard damage then something with the gear/group is wrong.

If you are not in a ST party and/or you don't have warlord for the detaunt, just wear armour with defensive set bonus and the bb/be/epic quest weapon for the extra 10% on-top. Throw your renown points into parry dodge and disrupt, rest into fs and if your positioning isn't the best, use toughness tallies. No need to sacrifice group utility for survivability.

Nothing needed to be reverted, you want to go 2h you pay a price for it. Again... 2h offensive tank should not be avoiding all the guard damage better or equal to that of a snb tank.

Order lacking on melee? I don't understand.

Never played a tank under the old system. So I can't compare. But all these (not only by you) posts about 2h tanks usefull cc/utility made me curious. I can see it for KotBS. I can't really see it for IB at the moment. But I'm only looking at the probably a bit outdated career builder. So I might be missing something.
But what does a 2h SM bring to the table regarding cc/utility, that a snb SM doesn't? And what comp would need a 2h SM?
2H IB's can do the best burst damage out of all the order tanks. They have access to all the useful utility, except for the cooldown increaser which requires a shield.

SM's blob control utility is locked behind having a shield (AoE interrupt/ST punt). In cities, 2H SM's are usually put in ST groups. They still have access to the very important cooldown decreaser for the group and a knockdown. You could also use them to AoE spam the blob to help with DoT pressure and stat stealing. In ORvR, 2H SM's can be the best tank on order for face tanking warbands, funnels, eating guard damage and can spec for an extra AoE punt as an M4. However I don't see many, if any, spec defensively with a 2H. It's Order's equivalent of the SnB Black Orc.

But damage isn't utility and cc/utility skills that you can use regardless of how you are skilled are not giving 2h tanks an advantage over snb tanks since they can use them just as easily. After looking at the destro careers again only KotBS and BG have usefull utility skills that would require a 2h spec. So only two out of six tank classes need to spec 2h for additional utility (plus maybe chosens ap drain aura).
Saying tanks in general are additional utility when going 2h, like done several times in this thread, is a very generous generalization...

And the Path of Khaine M4, really? Gusting Wind has only a 10 sec cd and is already only usefull in very few situations. Why would anyone spec Whirling Geyser?
Bricksana 8X SM, Bricksona 8X WH, Bricksone 7X Engi, Bricksorno 6X RP, Bricksonor 4X SW

nocturnalguest
Posts: 490

Re: 2h Tank guard

Post#123 » Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:56 pm

@detrap
ok, i have my answer, so you just argue to argue. ill refrain from such kind of "talk".
read my post again, i did debunk every crap you throw here as "arguments".
answering your question - yes, i did city on 2h tank with >70% parry.

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detrap
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Re: 2h Tank guard

Post#124 » Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:28 pm

Brickson wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:43 pm
Spoiler:
nocturnalguest wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 6:00 pm
Brickson wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 5:13 pm Never played a tank under the old system. So I can't compare. But all these (not only by you) posts about 2h tanks usefull cc/utility made me curious. I can see it for KotBS. I can't really see it for IB at the moment. But I'm only looking at the probably a bit outdated career builder. So I might be missing something.
But what does a 2h SM bring to the table regarding cc/utility, that a snb SM doesn't? And what comp would need a 2h SM?
2h SM in comparsion with SnB SM brings nothing but assist dmg sacrificing alot of survivability. Actually it is gated for SnB and WW if we talk about city. For anything larger than 24 no amount of darting steel gonna save your pointy ear arse.
Same goes for IB.

Yea, that's what I was aiming at. In comparison to a snb SM a 2h SM unfortunately doesn't add anything to a wb besides a bit of damage, for which they have to give up a lot.

Spoiler:
detrap wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 6:02 pm
Brickson wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 5:13 pm
Spoiler:

Never played a tank under the old system. So I can't compare. But all these (not only by you) posts about 2h tanks usefull cc/utility made me curious. I can see it for KotBS. I can't really see it for IB at the moment. But I'm only looking at the probably a bit outdated career builder. So I might be missing something.
But what does a 2h SM bring to the table regarding cc/utility, that a snb SM doesn't? And what comp would need a 2h SM?
2H IB's can do the best burst damage out of all the order tanks. They have access to all the useful utility, except for the cooldown increaser which requires a shield.

SM's blob control utility is locked behind having a shield (AoE interrupt/ST punt). In cities, 2H SM's are usually put in ST groups. They still have access to the very important cooldown decreaser for the group and a knockdown. You could also use them to AoE spam the blob to help with DoT pressure and stat stealing. In ORvR, 2H SM's can be the best tank on order for face tanking warbands, funnels, eating guard damage and can spec for an extra AoE punt as an M4. However I don't see many, if any, spec defensively with a 2H. It's Order's equivalent of the SnB Black Orc.

But damage isn't utility and cc/utility skills that you can use regardless of how you are skilled are not giving 2h tanks an advantage over snb tanks since they can use them just as easily. After looking at the destro careers again only KotBS and BG have usefull utility skills that would require a 2h spec. So only two out of six tank classes need to spec 2h for additional utility (plus maybe chosens ap drain aura).
Saying tanks in general are additional utility when going 2h, like done several times in this thread, is a very generous generalization...

And the Path of Khaine M4, really? Gusting Wind has only a 10 sec cd and is already only usefull in very few situations. Why would anyone spec Whirling Geyser?
Knight and BG are similar in that regards, they both have the lower damage burst out of their respective tanks as well.

Whirling Geyser is a big AoE punt. It's undefendable because it's a morale. Two things you could do is brake up a stubborn destro tank wall with it or you could drop behind onto their healers and disrupt them with two consecutive AoE punts.
Knight 8x - IB 8x - SM 8x / Chosen 3x - BO 4x - BG 5x

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detrap
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Re: 2h Tank guard

Post#125 » Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:32 pm

nocturnalguest wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:56 pm @detrap
ok, i have my answer, so you just argue to argue. ill refrain from such kind of "talk".
read my post again, i did debunk every crap you throw here as "arguments".
answering your question - yes, i did city on 2h tank with >70% parry.
I'm sure you and the SnB tanks were the last ones to die with that much parry pre-patch. Thanks for your points and understanding mine :D
Knight 8x - IB 8x - SM 8x / Chosen 3x - BO 4x - BG 5x

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Ysaran
Posts: 1220

Re: 2h Tank guard

Post#126 » Mon Jan 11, 2021 7:47 am

detrap wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:05 am
Ysaran wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:36 am
detrap wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:35 am

Never said that there's no place for 2h. They can still have good survivability they just need more defensive gear and better positioning. The changes was about guard damage, the normal damage you take from 2h hasn't changed, and not sure why you would want to buff survivability for 2h so they can face tank warbands. If you want to do that playing an SM is great for that.
I repeat myself: I never said that 2h tanks have to face-tank multiple wb.
What I'm saying from the first page is that you CAN spec for 2h and survivability (althought the game isn't really designed for it), but doing so you lose the very reason you specced for 2h: skill locked behinde 2h requirement.
I'll make you an example:
on BG you would have used this build (RoR.builders - Black Guard) for city or wb. But with this build, now you would just melt. Even speccing all you gear and RP defensivelly. So now, for 2h build you will use this build here (RoR.builders - Black Guard). In the second build you don't take neither the wounds debuff or Crimson Death, which are the reasons to take a 2h BG in wb. So, what's the point of playing bg in wb? There's none! And this is exactly why even in organized wb you will not see more than 1 BG.
Also, I really don't get why you support this change. This change is one of the very reasons why Order is deeply lacking in melee characters AND roaming party. IMO reverting part of this change (put guard damage only on parry, but leave stats contri and striketrought in the formula) would help Order get back some of his melees
So since the changes there has been no reason to have a 2h BG in city? Then you say one is okay in a wb? Well if you didn't know, depending on the comp, one 2h of each tank class is needed in a web anyways for both order and Destro, so having only 1 2h BG doesn't necessarily mean something needs fixing. Knights have the worst survivability out of all the tanks with a 2h, and yet I don't have any major issue with staying alive, it's not just about spec, it's gear. If you keep dying on your BG to guard damage then something with the gear/group is wrong.

If you are not in a ST party and/or you don't have warlord for the detaunt, just wear armour with defensive set bonus and the bb/be/epic quest weapon for the extra 10% on-top. Throw your renown points into parry dodge and disrupt, rest into fs and if your positioning isn't the best, use toughness tallies. No need to sacrifice group utility for survivability.

Nothing needed to be reverted, you want to go 2h you pay a price for it. Again... 2h offensive tank should not be avoiding all the guard damage better or equal to that of a snb tank.

Order lacking on melee? I don't understand.
What everyone and his mother is telling you here, is that if you go 2h you lose access to skill locked behinde shield requirement, surivability due to block (for both guard damage and normal damage) and, as a special notes, you lose acces to HTL that is tank's main defense against ranged.
You have always paid a price for going to 2h
Zputadenti

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Ysaran
Posts: 1220

Re: 2h Tank guard

Post#127 » Mon Jan 11, 2021 8:01 am

detrap wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 6:51 pm You can get up to 20% extra defensive procs from gear alone.
How?
Zputadenti

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detrap
Posts: 352
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Re: 2h Tank guard

Post#128 » Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:05 am

Ysaran wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 8:01 am
detrap wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 6:51 pm You can get up to 20% extra defensive procs from gear alone.
How?
Sets like Bloodlord gives 10%, vanq 7%, warlord has chance to detaunt attacker and the epic quest weapon and sentinel weapon have 10%. The weapon and armour defensive bonus procs stack.
Knight 8x - IB 8x - SM 8x / Chosen 3x - BO 4x - BG 5x

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detrap
Posts: 352
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Re: 2h Tank guard

Post#129 » Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:07 am

Ysaran wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 7:47 am
detrap wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:05 am
Ysaran wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:36 am

I repeat myself: I never said that 2h tanks have to face-tank multiple wb.
What I'm saying from the first page is that you CAN spec for 2h and survivability (althought the game isn't really designed for it), but doing so you lose the very reason you specced for 2h: skill locked behinde 2h requirement.
I'll make you an example:
on BG you would have used this build (RoR.builders - Black Guard) for city or wb. But with this build, now you would just melt. Even speccing all you gear and RP defensivelly. So now, for 2h build you will use this build here (RoR.builders - Black Guard). In the second build you don't take neither the wounds debuff or Crimson Death, which are the reasons to take a 2h BG in wb. So, what's the point of playing bg in wb? There's none! And this is exactly why even in organized wb you will not see more than 1 BG.
Also, I really don't get why you support this change. This change is one of the very reasons why Order is deeply lacking in melee characters AND roaming party. IMO reverting part of this change (put guard damage only on parry, but leave stats contri and striketrought in the formula) would help Order get back some of his melees
So since the changes there has been no reason to have a 2h BG in city? Then you say one is okay in a wb? Well if you didn't know, depending on the comp, one 2h of each tank class is needed in a web anyways for both order and Destro, so having only 1 2h BG doesn't necessarily mean something needs fixing. Knights have the worst survivability out of all the tanks with a 2h, and yet I don't have any major issue with staying alive, it's not just about spec, it's gear. If you keep dying on your BG to guard damage then something with the gear/group is wrong.

If you are not in a ST party and/or you don't have warlord for the detaunt, just wear armour with defensive set bonus and the bb/be/epic quest weapon for the extra 10% on-top. Throw your renown points into parry dodge and disrupt, rest into fs and if your positioning isn't the best, use toughness tallies. No need to sacrifice group utility for survivability.

Nothing needed to be reverted, you want to go 2h you pay a price for it. Again... 2h offensive tank should not be avoiding all the guard damage better or equal to that of a snb tank.

Order lacking on melee? I don't understand.
What everyone and his mother is telling you here, is that if you go 2h you lose access to skill locked behinde shield requirement, surivability due to block (for both guard damage and normal damage) and, as a special notes, you lose acces to HTL that is tank's main defense against ranged.
You have always paid a price for going to 2h
And like I keep reiterating, it wasn't as much of a setback as it is now. This patch was a change for the better.
Knight 8x - IB 8x - SM 8x / Chosen 3x - BO 4x - BG 5x

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Ysaran
Posts: 1220

Re: 2h Tank guard

Post#130 » Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:40 am

detrap wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:05 am
Ysaran wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 8:01 am
detrap wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 6:51 pm You can get up to 20% extra defensive procs from gear alone.
How?
Sets like Bloodlord gives 10%, vanq 7%, warlord has chance to detaunt attacker and the epic quest weapon and sentinel weapon have 10%. The weapon and armour defensive bonus procs stack.
I making my way through that gear, but I didn't know they staked. Glad to know
Zputadenti

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