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Akilinus
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Re: 2h Tank guard

Post#201 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:58 pm

All these assumptions about 2h with high parry in city being equal to snb is based around the melee meta? If the other team stacks bw/sorc your high parry wont do you any good against their direct damage.
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detrap
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Re: 2h Tank guard

Post#202 » Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:14 am

Akilinus wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:58 pm
All these assumptions about 2h with high parry in city being equal to snb is based around the melee meta? If the other team stacks bw/sorc your high parry wont do you any good against their direct damage.
This discussion is about guard damage, tanks with half an idea about position won't be in the aoe, and ranged usually focus any kind of tank last anyways.
Last edited by detrap on Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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detrap
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Re: 2h Tank guard

Post#203 » Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:21 am

ashton007 wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:58 pm
sharpblader wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:42 pm
detrap wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:56 am


Wods doesn't need looking at because it's the equivalent to the BO block channel, each with their pros and cons. Guard damage has been a nerf for every 2H tank, not just the knight. Wods is a means to reduce guard damage when under pressure. An SM didn't need sov/warlord/invader to out shine any snb tank apart from the BO when it came avoiding guard damage pre patch.

You clearly aren’t knowledgeable enough to know the difference. Chosen gets 25% parry with Suppression, so you really think a 2h chosen eats as much guard damage? As I've said...In warband vs warband city fights, 2H tanks were surviving just as well or better (SM was a great example of explaining the reasoning behind parry and guard damage) than most snb tanks. Please read over my previous comments.


"You clearly aren’t knowledgeable enough to know the difference. Chosen gets 25% parry with Suppression, so you really think a 2h chosen eats as much guard damage?"

Omg omg! Sorry I had to come back here to highlight the irony in this statement.

Look up Chosen tactic Mixed Defenses.

kthnxbye
Yeah u fool for SNB chosen that is 50% parry. Not including the block %. Your argument that 2h can survive as well as snb is false.
As I've said, they can survive just as well as snb tanks in city fights, what's there to argue? The snb and 2H would usually be the last ones standing before a warband wipe. Now it's not really the case unless the 2H tank is stacking full defensive or even warlord and a few good tanks in the warband and using htl. This patch has forced tanks to be more support focused and become more support reliant if they choose to play a dps role.
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Akilinus
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Re: 2h Tank guard

Post#204 » Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:04 am

detrap wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:14 am
Akilinus wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:58 pm
All these assumptions about 2h with high parry in city being equal to snb is based around the melee meta? If the other team stacks bw/sorc your high parry wont do you any good against their direct damage.
This discussion is about guard damage, tanks with half an idea about position won't be in the aoe, and ranged usually focus any kind of tank last anyways.
The tank dont decide the posistion you follow the dps or help the healers if they are getting jumped.
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detrap
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Re: 2h Tank guard

Post#205 » Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:14 am

Akilinus wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:04 am
detrap wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:14 am
Akilinus wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:58 pm
All these assumptions about 2h with high parry in city being equal to snb is based around the melee meta? If the other team stacks bw/sorc your high parry wont do you any good against their direct damage.
This discussion is about guard damage, tanks with half an idea about position won't be in the aoe, and ranged usually focus any kind of tank last anyways.
The tank dont decide the posistion you follow the dps or help the healers if they are getting jumped.
Yes but you choose where to position yourself while being in guard range, up to 30ft away from your guard :P
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nocturnalguest
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Re: 2h Tank guard

Post#206 » Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:49 pm

detrap wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:13 pm
You clearly dont even bother to read what people write to you. If you happen to main SM and enjoy unefficiently built, suboptimal defensive 2h and now on a crusade to justify it i will take a guess. You either NA or even Oceanic, right?
High parry 2h tanks in city warbands were surviving just as well as snb tanks
Surviving - No.
IB losses any kind of dmg reduction tactics cause they tied to block. Those tactics make IB incredibly durable and able to withstand huge beating.
Kotbs has requires shield block ability and vigilance (cant spec it as 2h not gimping yourself with losing crucial utility, so not able to run it in city)
SM not losing much spec wise. But gains crucial aoe interrupt with block and armor and still has his 25% parry buff.
BO cant hit me! is basically best avoidance skill in whole game. Requires shield. Not even funny to discuss how 2h BO's were surviving just as well as snb.
BG lose none shall pass and could spec block tactic on top. Not even talking about SnB BG being best turtle tank in whole game. Nobody would have taken it into proper city warband, but you talk about surviving.
Chosen SnB 50% parry/15% dmg decrease/armor buff vs. 25% parry? You cant be serious.
even better in the case of the SM
The Case of SM - No again. Aoe dmg decreaser tactic (stacks with challenge FYI), self dmg decreaser, various bubbles, dodge/disrupt tactic, parry/block tactic, pick any. For whatever odd reason (gimp his own wb?) one can spec snb sm as very great turtle, almost as great as bg/ib. In city properly specced snb SM beats 2h SM for st party in both survivability and his usefulness for its group.
SM is actually one of the lucky tanks which defensive tactics/abilities are not gated behind "requires shield" or "on block" condition so much (with crashing advance being actually the only exception) and still being able to do a good defensive mastery build as 2h but what for?! There is literally zero reasoning for that. If your st group needs WW its still much better to bring snb SM. There is no space for 2h SM in city group assuming its totally optimized.
how is that not simple enough to understand?
Because your bold delusional statement has nothing to do with reality?

What if we talk about guard tho? Were they able to deal with guard dmg as well as snb tanks? Mathematically probably no, qualitatively absolutely yes. I already told you that nobody argue with that in terms of dealing with guard dmg high parry 2h tanks reaching values ~70-75% buffed were not experiencing any significant problems handling guard dmg. I told you that 3 times already.
You are joking?
Because there is a crucial word "guard" in your statement that you seems to sometimes miss and confuse with "survivability" (=generally not dying from all dmg sources including morales). That word makes your whole statement correct.
Very wrong. Maybe you have also tested having 90% plus avoidances in funnels with a 2H?
What is very wrong? That doing forts as defensive 2h SM instead of bringing properly speced snb sm that will actually fully benefit your warband? Are you sane mate?!
Man, i have tested out everything that you can probably imagine. Weird comps, builds, setups, stats stacking etc.
Because they aren't a class that's designed to perform as well in that situation. They bring very powerful offensive AoE debuffs to warrant not having SM-like survivability.
Sorry, i worded myself very poor and if you'd care to read further than 1st sentence you'd understand that i meant kotbs can also survive just fine.
They can't buff their own defenses like the BG can, but maybe that's why knights have a superior M1 and M2 to help them survive?
Look, and this is a good proof that your "city experience" is kinda limited. 2h kotbs is usually put into st group, just so it stays away from the blob (to not risk) and guards something not taking very huge dmg (wl, asw, wh or something else in your st group). Also his other crucial task is to try to apply wounds+crit debuff into the aoe MA spots whenever its able to. its possible to run m1 absorb yeah, but both chch or armor debuff benefit your group more so in 99,9% cases kotbs pick either chch or armor debuff. m2 bellow is mandatory. not a single decent kotbs gonna slot that class crap m2 in city wb unless its some usual order group of 20 dps.
further supporting my claims 2H tanks were just fine with handling guard damage in city fights.
"were just fine with handling guard damage" is very correct one. Nobody argue with that. People argue that snb tanks survivability <= 2h tanks and (or) 2h tanks can handle guard dmg better than snb tanks. You claimed both of that multiple times already. And both of those are false.
High parry 2h tanks in city warbands were surviving just as well as snb tanks, even better in the case of the SM...How is that triggering?
Because its false. They
were just fine with handling guard damage in city fights

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detrap
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Re: 2h Tank guard

Post#207 » Sat Jan 16, 2021 9:12 am

Spoiler:
nocturnalguest wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:49 pm
detrap wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:13 pm
You clearly dont even bother to read what people write to you. If you happen to main SM and enjoy unefficiently built, suboptimal defensive 2h and now on a crusade to justify it i will take a guess. You either NA or even Oceanic, right?
High parry 2h tanks in city warbands were surviving just as well as snb tanks
Surviving - No.
IB losses any kind of dmg reduction tactics cause they tied to block. Those tactics make IB incredibly durable and able to withstand huge beating.
Kotbs has requires shield block ability and vigilance (cant spec it as 2h not gimping yourself with losing crucial utility, so not able to run it in city)
SM not losing much spec wise. But gains crucial aoe interrupt with block and armor and still has his 25% parry buff.
BO cant hit me! is basically best avoidance skill in whole game. Requires shield. Not even funny to discuss how 2h BO's were surviving just as well as snb.
BG lose none shall pass and could spec block tactic on top. Not even talking about SnB BG being best turtle tank in whole game. Nobody would have taken it into proper city warband, but you talk about surviving.
Chosen SnB 50% parry/15% dmg decrease/armor buff vs. 25% parry? You cant be serious.
even better in the case of the SM
The Case of SM - No again. Aoe dmg decreaser tactic (stacks with challenge FYI), self dmg decreaser, various bubbles, dodge/disrupt tactic, parry/block tactic, pick any. For whatever odd reason (gimp his own wb?) one can spec snb sm as very great turtle, almost as great as bg/ib. In city properly specced snb SM beats 2h SM for st party in both survivability and his usefulness for its group.
SM is actually one of the lucky tanks which defensive tactics/abilities are not gated behind "requires shield" or "on block" condition so much (with crashing advance being actually the only exception) and still being able to do a good defensive mastery build as 2h but what for?! There is literally zero reasoning for that. If your st group needs WW its still much better to bring snb SM. There is no space for 2h SM in city group assuming its totally optimized.
how is that not simple enough to understand?
Because your bold delusional statement has nothing to do with reality?

What if we talk about guard tho? Were they able to deal with guard dmg as well as snb tanks? Mathematically probably no, qualitatively absolutely yes. I already told you that nobody argue with that in terms of dealing with guard dmg high parry 2h tanks reaching values ~70-75% buffed were not experiencing any significant problems handling guard dmg. I told you that 3 times already.
You are joking?
Because there is a crucial word "guard" in your statement that you seems to sometimes miss and confuse with "survivability" (=generally not dying from all dmg sources including morales). That word makes your whole statement correct.
Very wrong. Maybe you have also tested having 90% plus avoidances in funnels with a 2H?
What is very wrong? That doing forts as defensive 2h SM instead of bringing properly speced snb sm that will actually fully benefit your warband? Are you sane mate?!
Man, i have tested out everything that you can probably imagine. Weird comps, builds, setups, stats stacking etc.
Because they aren't a class that's designed to perform as well in that situation. They bring very powerful offensive AoE debuffs to warrant not having SM-like survivability.
Sorry, i worded myself very poor and if you'd care to read further than 1st sentence you'd understand that i meant kotbs can also survive just fine.
They can't buff their own defenses like the BG can, but maybe that's why knights have a superior M1 and M2 to help them survive?
Look, and this is a good proof that your "city experience" is kinda limited. 2h kotbs is usually put into st group, just so it stays away from the blob (to not risk) and guards something not taking very huge dmg (wl, asw, wh or something else in your st group). Also his other crucial task is to try to apply wounds+crit debuff into the aoe MA spots whenever its able to. its possible to run m1 absorb yeah, but both chch or armor debuff benefit your group more so in 99,9% cases kotbs pick either chch or armor debuff. m2 bellow is mandatory. not a single decent kotbs gonna slot that class crap m2 in city wb unless its some usual order group of 20 dps.
further supporting my claims 2H tanks were just fine with handling guard damage in city fights.
"were just fine with handling guard damage" is very correct one. Nobody argue with that. People argue that snb tanks survivability <= 2h tanks and (or) 2h tanks can handle guard dmg better than snb tanks. You claimed both of that multiple times already. And both of those are false.
High parry 2h tanks in city warbands were surviving just as well as snb tanks, even better in the case of the SM...How is that triggering?
Because its false. They
were just fine with handling guard damage in city fights
You clearly dont even bother to read what people write to you. If you happen to main SM and enjoy unefficiently built, suboptimal defensive 2h and now on a crusade to justify it i will take a guess. You either NA or even Oceanic, right?

Irrelevant and condescending fluff. SM was just a perfect and easy example.

Surviving - No.
IB losses any kind of dmg reduction tactics cause they tied to block. Those tactics make IB incredibly durable and able to withstand huge beating.
Kotbs has requires shield block ability and vigilance (cant spec it as 2h not gimping yourself with losing crucial utility, so not able to run it in city)
SM not losing much spec wise. But gains crucial aoe interrupt with block and armor and still has his 25% parry buff.
BO cant hit me! is basically best avoidance skill in whole game. Requires shield. Not even funny to discuss how 2h BO's were surviving just as well as snb.
BG lose none shall pass and could spec block tactic on top. Not even talking about SnB BG being best turtle tank in whole game. Nobody would have taken it into proper city warband, but you talk about surviving.
Chosen SnB 50% parry/15% dmg decrease/armor buff vs. 25% parry? You cant be serious.

Fluff again, why is there less 2H tanks in city than before? Would it be because they don't have the issues of dying to guard damage as they do now? My points are self explanatory.

The Case of SM - No again. Aoe dmg decreaser tactic (stacks with challenge FYI), self dmg decreaser, various bubbles, dodge/disrupt tactic, parry/block tactic, pick any. For whatever odd reason (gimp his own wb?) one can spec snb sm as very great turtle, almost as great as bg/ib. In city properly specced snb SM beats 2h SM for st party in both survivability and his usefulness for its group.
SM is actually one of the lucky tanks which defensive tactics/abilities are not gated behind "requires shield" or "on block" condition so much (with crashing advance being actually the only exception) and still being able to do a good defensive mastery build as 2h but what for?! There is literally zero reasoning for that. If your st group needs WW its still much better to bring snb SM. There is no space for 2h SM in city group assuming its totally optimized.

Fluff. Topic is about 2H and guard damage survivability not what is optimal for the warband, also the meta can easily change. Don't need to read me too much of the mastery trees. I know about the skills and can easily look them up if I need to.

Because your bold delusional statement has nothing to do with reality?


What if we talk about guard tho? Were they able to deal with guard dmg as well as snb tanks? Mathematically probably no, qualitatively absolutely yes. I already told you that nobody argue with that in terms of dealing with guard dmg high parry 2h tanks reaching values ~70-75% buffed were not experiencing any significant problems handling guard dmg. I told you that 3 times already.

Question again...why is there less 2H tanks in city warband blobs than before? Would it be because they don't have the issues of dying to guard damage as they do now? My point is self explanatory.

Because there is a crucial word "guard" in your statement that you seems to sometimes miss and confuse with "survivability" (=generally not dying from all dmg sources including morales). That word makes your whole statement correct.

Yes because the topic is about guard damage, outside of that the damage can easily be mitigated with toughness and good positioning.

What is very wrong? That doing forts as defensive 2h SM instead of bringing properly speced snb sm that will actually fully benefit your warband? Are you sane mate?!
Man, i have tested out everything that you can probably imagine. Weird comps, builds, setups, stats stacking etc.

2H SM is the closet thing to snb BO's spamming CHM, which makes SM's the better tank on order side for blocking funnels or face tanking warbands. Please tell me a tank on order side that can reach upwards of 70% parry/dodge/disrupt with an spammable ability that only requires AP to use. Not sure if HTL buffs stack, as HTL currently does not even show up on .getstats. SnB is better for a solid 10 seconds if they use Shield Wall, then after that? Plus they have access to the mega AoE undefendable morale punt in the Khaine tree, great for breaking destro tank walls. I'm guessing you have tested all this too?

Look, and this is a good proof that your "city experience" is kinda limited. 2h kotbs is usually put into st group, just so it stays away from the blob (to not risk) and guards something not taking very huge dmg (wl, asw, wh or something else in your st group). Also his other crucial task is to try to apply wounds+crit debuff into the aoe MA spots whenever its able to. its possible to run m1 absorb yeah, but both chch or armor debuff benefit your group more so in 99,9% cases kotbs pick either chch or armor debuff. m2 bellow is mandatory. not a single decent kotbs gonna slot that class crap m2 in city wb unless its some usual order group of 20 dps.

More fluff. Also order has AoE and ST armour debuffs from multiple classes. A knight in the ST group won't be suffering as much guard damage, so where is the survivability issue as 2H then? Bellow doesn't stack, don't need all tanks using it. The knight's defensive morales help with survivability in orvr/city and are there if required i.e. on blob control. How do you know 99.9% of knights pick those morales you mentioned? I'm sure some knights save up for m3 and use it when morale drops are called on the train.

"were just fine with handling guard damage" is very correct one. Nobody argue with that. People argue that snb tanks survivability <= 2h tanks and (or) 2h tanks can handle guard dmg better than snb tanks. You claimed both of that multiple times already. And both of those are false.

So there was no issue with 2H tanks surviving guard damage pre patch, both would be the last ones standing in a warband wipe, so that means they were just as good at surviving through guard damage as snb tanks in cities. You have been arguing that point this whole time. lol

In the case of my 2H SM, its guard damage avoidance capabilities were beyond that of any snb order tank. This was discovered when guarding champs as a non champ in cities because of the 90%+ spammable parry. How does any snb tank except the BO come close to it and has abilities as easy to access to get there? Have you tried that build prepatch?
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nocturnalguest
Posts: 206

Re: 2h Tank guard

Post#208 » Sat Jan 16, 2021 9:35 am

detrap wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:13 pm
Ok, i just stop here. Thats sad that there are almost no videos with voiceover from decent warbands so you could learn from them how actually tank play looks like in city.

P.S. there was no such thing as "discovery" of 2h sm champ guarding as avoidance for guard handling were caped at 75% dude. deftard snb IB would do even better.

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Re: 2h Tank guard

Post#209 » Sat Jan 16, 2021 11:46 am

i Find this very entertaining, Sry the thread toke this route Aki..
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Re: 2h Tank guard

Post#210 » Sat Jan 16, 2021 2:26 pm

nocturnalguest wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 9:35 am
detrap wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:13 pm
Ok, i just stop here. Thats sad that there are almost no videos with voiceover from decent warbands so you could learn from them how actually tank play looks like in city.

P.S. there was no such thing as "discovery" of 2h sm champ guarding as avoidance for guard handling were caped at 75% dude. deftard snb IB would do even better.
Played an IB as well. 2H SM was better for the job. Did you test the IB too along with your max parry SM? Only way for the IB to consume the guard damage better was to use oathstone and make sure not to get hit, but that's on a cooldown. Not sure why you bring up the defensive cap, there was definitely not one on block in my combat logs when I use it(shield wall is 200% and oathstone is 800%). But this is getting off topic now.
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