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[SH] Ranged knock down has to go

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Akalukz
Posts: 995

Re: [SH] Ranged knock down has to go

Post#161 » Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:18 pm

NSKaneda wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:09 pm
Akalukz wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:05 pm
NSKaneda wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 4:53 pm
Spoiler:


While run away the tactic requires incoming dmg to work and run away! the charge skill is time-limited to 10 seconds, is on 45s cooldown and requires pet to work. Guerilla training gives you nearly uninterrupted mobility with 1s in-between. And it doesn't limit rotations: swap stance, slow down, swap stance, dot, swap stance, debuff, swap stance, disarm, jump away, swap stance and so on ;)

You can slow down that gobbo. Knock him down. Stagger and chain stagger. Channel while he runs or jumps away. Silence to prevent him from running. Disarm so he takes your burst in.

There are ways to deal with run away, same with all the charge classes really. It doesn't need to be nerfed, even pre work 9 out of 10 herdas used it so swapping it from tree to free access made no difference.
You do realize there is a stance cooldown right?

That's the 1s in-between ;) Stance CD is 5s, guerilla speed buff is 5s, you get 1s gcd between stance swaps.
haha ok, that's a reach but ok :) As long as you don't want to do anything beside stance dot stance slow I guess that works...kinda
-= Agony =-

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ShadowWalker
Posts: 7

Re: [SH] Ranged knock down has to go

Post#162 » Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:23 pm

LOL!!! I rarely ever post on these forums, but this IS the funniest post I have ever read! Thank you! Order has had three ranged knock downs since day one of live Warhammer (I don't count pistol whip - only 30 foot range). Until recently, Destro has had none. So as an Order player, you get to finally enjoy the rapture that is a ranged knock down. Welcome to the party. Have fun! :)

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NSKaneda
Posts: 701

Re: [SH] Ranged knock down has to go

Post#163 » Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:27 pm

Akalukz wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:18 pm
NSKaneda wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:09 pm
Akalukz wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:05 pm


You do realize there is a stance cooldown right?

That's the 1s in-between ;) Stance CD is 5s, guerilla speed buff is 5s, you get 1s gcd between stance swaps.
haha ok, that's a reach but ok :) As long as you don't want to do anything beside stance dot stance slow I guess that works...kinda

Works for our guild's Shadow Sniper Team ;)

You get to use scout dots while running. Skirmish "on the move" skills. It's not like all you're doing during those 5s is planning your escape. Running away to knockdown and burst works too.
SWs have way more mobility than SHs. Change my mind ;)
RoR: Burszui SH, Ropopuch SHM, Mordoszczel BO | Ginnar IB, Zuriael AM ++ REV guild ++
Live: Karak Izor -> Karak Norn - Yarpaen IB, Ginnarr SL, Volundr ENG +Ithilmar's Chosen+
* * * playing 19 classes - running out of char slots * * *

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Earthcake
Posts: 80

Re: [SH] Ranged knock down has to go

Post#164 » Thu Jan 21, 2021 8:31 pm

GCD is 1.15sec

To keep your oh so good SW mobility as you want to do it, you can cast 4 skills, then have to stance swap, that's 25.3% of your time not interacting with enemies (cuz u r also losing 0.4sec waiting for your stance CD). There is a better way to do it, but i'm doing the maths on what you described, so don't blame the maths.

So you take your damage, remove 25.3% of it, realize you are doing a disservice to everybody doing it, and stop.

While we are at it, can we stop saying SW got 100ft range and SH 65ft plz ? SH also got a 100ft range mastery tree. And yes i'm well aware noone wants to use it cause there is a better tree out there, but that's the exact same for SW...

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NSKaneda
Posts: 701

Re: [SH] Ranged knock down has to go

Post#165 » Thu Jan 21, 2021 8:58 pm

Earthcake wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 8:31 pm
GCD is 1.15sec

To keep your oh so good SW mobility as you want to do it, you can cast 4 skills, then have to stance swap, that's 20% of your time not interacting with enemies.

So you take your damage, remove 20% of it, and then realize you are doing a disservice to everybody doing it, and stop.

While we are at it, can we stop saying SW got 100ft range and SH 65ft plz ? SH also got a 100ft range mastery tree. And yes i'm well aware noone wants to use it cause there is a better tree out there, but that's the exact same for SW...

1.15 sec, sorry, my perception of time is not that acute.

Difference is SH Big Shooting tree keeps you rooted in place for way too long. Ever since run away the tactic nerf you cannot "catch" a dot and have speed buff to relocate. Quick shooting is all 65ft (80 buffed) - dots, debuffs, burst. SWs Skirmisher is 65ft for aoe and 100ft for ST.
SWs Scout path is also quicker than Big Shooting - poison arrer/fester, plink/eagle eye and armour debuff are the same but Big shootin' has that reworked 3s explodin arrer knock back that just extends rotation beyond reasonable time in battlefield situations (works great for stationary sieges though). A bit of a wasted skill slot (kinda like poison arrer in quick shooting build, highly situational but too long to make it's way to standard rotation).

A gobbo that stands still for more that 2 seconds is a dead gobbo more often than not. So you kite and I guess, to quote your words, "then realize you are doing a disservice to everybody doing it, and stop".


Please understand, I'm NOT advocating a nerf. I'm pointing out that those pastures are always greener on the other side. And I play both sides ;)
Last edited by NSKaneda on Thu Jan 21, 2021 9:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
RoR: Burszui SH, Ropopuch SHM, Mordoszczel BO | Ginnar IB, Zuriael AM ++ REV guild ++
Live: Karak Izor -> Karak Norn - Yarpaen IB, Ginnarr SL, Volundr ENG +Ithilmar's Chosen+
* * * playing 19 classes - running out of char slots * * *

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Akalukz
Posts: 995

Re: [SH] Ranged knock down has to go

Post#166 » Thu Jan 21, 2021 9:03 pm

NSKaneda wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 8:58 pm
Earthcake wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 8:31 pm
GCD is 1.15sec

To keep your oh so good SW mobility as you want to do it, you can cast 4 skills, then have to stance swap, that's 20% of your time not interacting with enemies.

So you take your damage, remove 20% of it, and then realize you are doing a disservice to everybody doing it, and stop.

While we are at it, can we stop saying SW got 100ft range and SH 65ft plz ? SH also got a 100ft range mastery tree. And yes i'm well aware noone wants to use it cause there is a better tree out there, but that's the exact same for SW...

1.15 sec, sorry, my perception of time is not that acute.

Difference is SH Big Shooting tree keeps you rooted in place for way too long. Ever since run away the tactic nerf you cannot "catch" a dot and have speed buff to relocate. Quick shooting is all 65ft (80 buffed) - dots, debuffs, burst. SWs Skirmisher is 65ft for aoe and 100ft for ST. (And SH is AoE mele vs Single target...single target in a game designed around Mele AoE)
SWs Scout path is also quicker than Big Shooting - poison arrer/fester, plink/eagle eye and armour debuff are the same but Big shootin' has that reworked 3s explodin arrer knock back that just extends rotation beyond reasonable time in battlefield situations (works great for stationary sieges though). A bit of a wasted skill slot (kinda like poison arrer in quick shooting build, highly situational but too long to make it's way to standard rotation).

A gobbo that stands still for more that 2 seconds is a dead gobbo more often than not. So you kite and I guess, to quote your words, "then realize you are doing a disservice to everybody doing it, and stop".
How is a SW standing still for more than 2 seconds any different? For that matter see ^^Comment

EDIT" Maybe they should just make the trees mirror Left - 100' Single Target Statiionary - Middle (Mele either AoE or Single - Right 65" On the Move For both classes.
Last edited by Akalukz on Thu Jan 21, 2021 9:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-= Agony =-

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NSKaneda
Posts: 701

Re: [SH] Ranged knock down has to go

Post#167 » Thu Jan 21, 2021 9:04 pm

Akalukz wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 9:03 pm
How is a SW standing still for more than 2 seconds any different? For that matter see ^^Comment

You don't rely on pet, cooldown or dmg to have speed buff to relocate to safe distance. We're circling back to the begining.
RoR: Burszui SH, Ropopuch SHM, Mordoszczel BO | Ginnar IB, Zuriael AM ++ REV guild ++
Live: Karak Izor -> Karak Norn - Yarpaen IB, Ginnarr SL, Volundr ENG +Ithilmar's Chosen+
* * * playing 19 classes - running out of char slots * * *

User avatar
Akalukz
Posts: 995

Re: [SH] Ranged knock down has to go

Post#168 » Thu Jan 21, 2021 9:05 pm

NSKaneda wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 9:04 pm
Akalukz wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 9:03 pm
How is a SW standing still for more than 2 seconds any different? For that matter see ^^Comment

You don't rely on pet, cooldown or dmg to have speed buff to relocate to safe distance. We're circling back to the begining.

pet has already been determined a non issue as you have what 3 to choose from. Nope we need to waste a tactic for speed buff and swap stances.
-= Agony =-

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Tankbeardz
Posts: 616

Re: [SH] Ranged knock down has to go

Post#169 » Thu Jan 21, 2021 9:18 pm

NSKaneda wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 8:58 pm
Earthcake wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 8:31 pm
GCD is 1.15sec

To keep your oh so good SW mobility as you want to do it, you can cast 4 skills, then have to stance swap, that's 20% of your time not interacting with enemies.

So you take your damage, remove 20% of it, and then realize you are doing a disservice to everybody doing it, and stop.

While we are at it, can we stop saying SW got 100ft range and SH 65ft plz ? SH also got a 100ft range mastery tree. And yes i'm well aware noone wants to use it cause there is a better tree out there, but that's the exact same for SW...

1.15 sec, sorry, my perception of time is not that acute.

Difference is SH Big Shooting tree keeps you rooted in place for way too long. Ever since run away the tactic nerf you cannot "catch" a dot and have speed buff to relocate. Quick shooting is all 65ft (80 buffed) - dots, debuffs, burst. SWs Skirmisher is 65ft for aoe and 100ft for ST.
SWs Scout path is also quicker than Big Shooting - poison arrer/fester, plink/eagle eye and armour debuff are the same but Big shootin' has that reworked 3s explodin arrer knock back that just extends rotation beyond reasonable time in battlefield situations (works great for stationary sieges though). A bit of a wasted skill slot (kinda like poison arrer in quick shooting build, highly situational but too long to make it's way to standard rotation).

A gobbo that stands still for more that 2 seconds is a dead gobbo more often than not. So you kite and I guess, to quote your words, "then realize you are doing a disservice to everybody doing it, and stop".
Quick Shootin vs Skirm
Not to mention the new cooldown on Yer Bleedin which makes it an unreliable dot as well as making the heal debuff even more unreliable since 2 abilities need to not get dodge/blocked. Shrapnel Arrer is no longer a viable way to reliably cast the HD either since the 10s initiative debuff was removed. This means rSW can layer dots (constant damage) and burst while rSH has to rely on direct damage burst for most of it's damage.

BHA spam 3x stack at 100 feet with no cooldown is the clear winner here. Can it be cleansed? Yep...but then you can go right back to stacking your dots. Sure the heal debuff is on 65 ft range but it can also be made undefendable with VoN.

Big Shootin vs Scout
On the topic of the RKD...the initiative debuff is tied to the freakin RKD. Add in Bulleseye for even more crit and add VoN to add a whopping 25% damage to an undefendable Fester...it's not even close.

Sure rSH has more escape tools...but don't tell me that rSW isn't as strong.

User avatar
NSKaneda
Posts: 701

Re: [SH] Ranged knock down has to go

Post#170 » Thu Jan 21, 2021 9:26 pm

Tankbeardz wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 9:18 pm
NSKaneda wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 8:58 pm
Spoiler:
Earthcake wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 8:31 pm
GCD is 1.15sec

To keep your oh so good SW mobility as you want to do it, you can cast 4 skills, then have to stance swap, that's 20% of your time not interacting with enemies.

So you take your damage, remove 20% of it, and then realize you are doing a disservice to everybody doing it, and stop.

While we are at it, can we stop saying SW got 100ft range and SH 65ft plz ? SH also got a 100ft range mastery tree. And yes i'm well aware noone wants to use it cause there is a better tree out there, but that's the exact same for SW...

1.15 sec, sorry, my perception of time is not that acute.

Difference is SH Big Shooting tree keeps you rooted in place for way too long. Ever since run away the tactic nerf you cannot "catch" a dot and have speed buff to relocate. Quick shooting is all 65ft (80 buffed) - dots, debuffs, burst. SWs Skirmisher is 65ft for aoe and 100ft for ST.
SWs Scout path is also quicker than Big Shooting - poison arrer/fester, plink/eagle eye and armour debuff are the same but Big shootin' has that reworked 3s explodin arrer knock back that just extends rotation beyond reasonable time in battlefield situations (works great for stationary sieges though). A bit of a wasted skill slot (kinda like poison arrer in quick shooting build, highly situational but too long to make it's way to standard rotation).

A gobbo that stands still for more that 2 seconds is a dead gobbo more often than not. So you kite and I guess, to quote your words, "then realize you are doing a disservice to everybody doing it, and stop".
Spoiler:
Quick Shootin vs Skirm
Not to mention the new cooldown on Yer Bleedin which makes it an unreliable dot as well as making the heal debuff even more unreliable since 2 abilities need to not get dodge/blocked. Shrapnel Arrer is no longer a viable way to reliable cast the HD either since the 10s initiative debuff was removed. This means rSW can layer dots (constant damage) and burst while rSH has to rely on direct damage burst for most of it's damage.

BHA spam 3x stack at 100 feet with no cooldown is the clear winner here. Can it be cleansed? Yep...but then you can go right back to stacking your dots. Sure the heal debuff is on 65 ft range but it can also be made undefendable with VoN.

Big Shootin vs Scout
On the topic of the RKD...the initiative debuff is tied to the freakin RKD. Add in Bulleseye for even more crit and add VoN to add a whopping 25% damage to an undefendable Fester...it's not even close.
Sure rSH has more escape tools...but don't tell me that rSW isn't as strong.

SWs are very strong indeed. Like I've written: nerf not. Learn how to hunt them :)
RoR: Burszui SH, Ropopuch SHM, Mordoszczel BO | Ginnar IB, Zuriael AM ++ REV guild ++
Live: Karak Izor -> Karak Norn - Yarpaen IB, Ginnarr SL, Volundr ENG +Ithilmar's Chosen+
* * * playing 19 classes - running out of char slots * * *

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