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Move distracting bellow back to morale 3

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lyncher12
Posts: 383

Move distracting bellow back to morale 3

Post#1 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:52 pm

Raze was originally swapped from M2 to M3 because I guess it was too strong? With morale bombing getting a hefty nerf that alone is reason enough to swap it back to how it was originally. Coordinated morale drops have always been the way to kill a target that was just too stubborn to die but now with that threshold being lower it is clear that Distracting Bellow is too strong in its current state. It is better than Immaculate Defense, a morale 4.

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nocturnalguest
Posts: 190

Re: Move distracting bellow back to morale 3

Post#2 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:40 pm

Generally I support. Its fair enough.
But need to actually look into TTK for top end play. And there it would probably lead to TTK decrease because no longer fast bellow rotations and it will make morale pumping on destro a thing again to counter so called order raw dmg advantage (im personally not bying it, my pov its bullshit and overall dmg is more or less same for both faction and lots of city ss's just proves it with msh/choppa/sw/wl sometimes being top or very close to top, sorc/mara/bw/slayer being always top with rare engi/magus (due to very low amount of good players on those classes and pro's being rarest kind cause both classes are actually complex and hard to master) doing top1 dmg, ss's i admit dont tell whole story but at least its somewhat a data).
Altho i'd personally start with revert of aoe hd's nerf #makeDPSrp/zealot great again!
Just to figure what would be ttk with aoe hd and morale nerf. I feel it could be sweetest spot.

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teiloh
Posts: 541

Re: Move distracting bellow back to morale 3

Post#3 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:44 pm

nocturnalguest wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:40 pm
Generally I support. Its fair enough.
But need to actually look into TTK for top end play. And there it would probably lead to TTK decrease because no longer fast bellow rotations and it will make morale pumping on destro a thing again to counter so called order raw dmg advantage (im personally not bying it, my pov its bullshit and overall dmg is more or less same for both faction and lots of city ss's just proves it with msh/choppa/sw/wl sometimes being top or very close to top, sorc/mara/bw/slayer being always top with rare engi/magus (due to very low amount of good players on those classes and pro's being rarest kind cause both classes are actually complex and hard to master) doing top1 dmg, ss's i admit dont tell whole story but at least its somewhat a data).
Altho i'd personally start with revert of aoe hd's nerf #makeDPSrp/zealot great again!
Just to figure what would be ttk with aoe hd and morale nerf. I feel it could be sweetest spot.
Destro definitely has a raw damage advantage, the opposite claim is pure meme.
-- In the grim darkness of Warhammer Online, there is only Destrukaren asking for Rampage nerf.

gglanouille
Posts: 43

Re: Move distracting bellow back to morale 3

Post#4 » Fri Jan 15, 2021 1:19 pm

anyway i agree that raze sucks as M3.
Not real burst because not instant, not real DoT because interruptible, not enough damages in total...
Tanks should have a better M3 option, so even if not making it M2 why not buff it a bit ?

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Alsayr
Posts: 227
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Re: Move distracting bellow back to morale 3

Post#5 » Fri Jan 15, 2021 1:45 pm

Both side have the same option with this morale, whats is a problem ? Oh i know, 2 tanks 2 heals and 20 dps in warband, typical order premade.
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Elvicof
Posts: 49

Re: Move distracting bellow back to morale 3

Post#6 » Fri Jan 15, 2021 1:51 pm

teiloh wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:44 pm
nocturnalguest wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:40 pm
Generally I support. Its fair enough.
But need to actually look into TTK for top end play. And there it would probably lead to TTK decrease because no longer fast bellow rotations and it will make morale pumping on destro a thing again to counter so called order raw dmg advantage (im personally not bying it, my pov its bullshit and overall dmg is more or less same for both faction and lots of city ss's just proves it with msh/choppa/sw/wl sometimes being top or very close to top, sorc/mara/bw/slayer being always top with rare engi/magus (due to very low amount of good players on those classes and pro's being rarest kind cause both classes are actually complex and hard to master) doing top1 dmg, ss's i admit dont tell whole story but at least its somewhat a data).
Altho i'd personally start with revert of aoe hd's nerf #makeDPSrp/zealot great again!
Just to figure what would be ttk with aoe hd and morale nerf. I feel it could be sweetest spot.
Destro definitely has a raw damage advantage, the opposite claim is pure meme.
Funny would never have guessed that was you point of view.

You seem so objective in all other post you make
Moonlapse and VII

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Nekkma
Posts: 600

Re: Move distracting bellow back to morale 3

Post#7 » Fri Jan 15, 2021 2:06 pm

lyncher12 wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:52 pm
Raze was originally swapped from M2 to M3 because I guess it was too strong? With morale bombing getting a hefty nerf that alone is reason enough to swap it back to how it was originally. Coordinated morale drops have always been the way to kill a target that was just too stubborn to die but now with that threshold being lower it is clear that Distracting Bellow is too strong in its current state. It is better than Immaculate Defense, a morale 4.
I tend to agree. I also like that this will make tanks with 1200 instant morale dmg to chose between defensive or offensive morale on m3 and not as now beeing able to have both.
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wonshot
Posts: 715

Re: Move distracting bellow back to morale 3

Post#8 » Fri Jan 15, 2021 2:27 pm

Not fully decited on how I feel about the original placement.
There are so many things going into this.
1)First off I think Raze is too poor of a morale to have on M3. When other tanks can get cc+instant damage on the same morale slot (Knight No Escape, BO aoe silence)

2) Distracting Bellow is arguebly not worth focus-pumping to get for orvr or city. Yes it is lovely to have, and powerful but do you want to target pump it with an AM? Im not too sold. You reach it naturally rather fast anyways.
Distracting bellow on M2 does make a big difference compared to M3 slot, as the natural moralepersec will allow for more Bellows ready in a City stage3 king-dps race where the meta is for 8 tanks to rotate their bellows over the Enemy damagedealers to try and slow them down. If this was changed to M3 maybe a strategy could be to try and kill a few tanks to reset their morale bar before the stage3 champs fade. where as of now only resetting the damagedealers moralebar is worth it.

3) With early mitigation from Tanks on M2, and Focusmind muscle healing on healer's M2, damage morales with internal-mitigation creates this overdurable TimeToKill situation when both sides are playing propper. Cleanup takes for ever, resses are as fast as focusfireing for singletarget and breaking a full warband in competitive play CAN seem like an upscaled 6v6ranked match where nothing just dies. Making me raise the question if the TTK is where it should be atm.

4) so would swapping raze and Bellow back to their orginal places solve anything(?) Well looking at the two realms Order would probably love not getting hit by a Bellow to the face when all 8 challenges have been fired off, and therefor not being under perma mitigation in a warbandfight. And destro tanks might regain an advantage they previously lost, by having their morale pump-tactics and therefor reaching their Bellows faster than Order counterparts. Making both realms get a little buff to each of their realm-wide playstyle advantages.

5) would raze on M2 bring back morale bombing? Well there is still the X ammount of morale damage taken per sec limmitation before the morale burst is mitigated. And with raze being interruptable you have counterplay against this over-time moralebomb. And it would speed up TTK with both less bellows against normale ability damage, while layering offensive raze damage on top if a side decited to use their morales offensively instead of saving for a defensive Bellow m3 option.

6) 50% aoe healdebuff could help with these largescale TTK stalemates where nothing dies and recovering is too potent. It was removed with a reasoning of it was making Organized play too powerful against unorganized, basicly if you had a dps rp/zeal and supported this build you got too big of an edge over someone who didnt run it. But with the latest trend of overly catering to the pug-life on RoR maybe this would be a welcome addition to bring back and support organized endgame play. These builds concisted of full classcanon "healers" on the frontline being competly reliant of a cooldown reduction partner to have a good uptime on these healdebuffs. Noone ever complained about aoe healdebuff outside of 6v6 and as a result was it removed from warband play. TTK would for sure look different with 50%aoe healdebuf reintroduced, even if Bellow is staying as an M2.
If the uptime was too much of an issue, give it the Hard-cap sorc treatment of not being affected by cooldown decreasers so the aoe healdebuff comes in waves instead of a coordinated effort to give it higher uptime.
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teiloh
Posts: 541

Re: Move distracting bellow back to morale 3

Post#9 » Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:52 pm

Elvicof wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 1:51 pm
Funny would never have guessed that was you point of view.

You seem so objective in all other post you make
I try my best. What Destro rotations are being beaten out by Order ones? No one is willing to answer this clearly. Maybe a vid of good players that you can link.

Unless you're talking about WLs/ASW single target damage in a small man situation, then that I'm less sure of.
-- In the grim darkness of Warhammer Online, there is only Destrukaren asking for Rampage nerf.

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teiloh
Posts: 541

Re: Move distracting bellow back to morale 3

Post#10 » Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:54 pm

wonshot wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 2:27 pm
6) 50% aoe healdebuff could help with these largescale TTK stalemates where nothing dies and recovering is too potent. It was removed with a reasoning of it was making Organized play too powerful against unorganized, basicly if you had a dps rp/zeal and supported this build you got too big of an edge over someone who didnt run it. But with the latest trend of overly catering to the pug-life on RoR maybe this would be a welcome addition to bring back and support organized endgame play. These builds concisted of full classcanon "healers" on the frontline being competly reliant of a cooldown reduction partner to have a good uptime on these healdebuffs. Noone ever complained about aoe healdebuff outside of 6v6 and as a result was it removed from warband play. TTK would for sure look different with 50%aoe healdebuf reintroduced, even if Bellow is staying as an M2.
If the uptime was too much of an issue, give it the Hard-cap sorc treatment of not being affected by cooldown decreasers so the aoe healdebuff comes in waves instead of a coordinated effort to give it higher uptime.
Is TTK (esp in large groups) generally considered too high?
-- In the grim darkness of Warhammer Online, there is only Destrukaren asking for Rampage nerf.

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