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Idea for Improving Communication of Balance Changes

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Structured class balance suggestions belong in the Balance Proposal subforum. Class-related discussion in this section are considered as ongoing debates and ARE NOT reviewed for balance changes.
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martholomew
Posts: 162

Re: Idea for Improving Communication of Balance Changes

Post#11 » Mon Mar 22, 2021 12:13 pm

OP - you'll just have to take whatever you get, here. Sorry, but that's just how it is. There is no obligation to placate the players here as they aren't profit based in any way. This server is what it is. Some of us have had our favorite classes gutted, buffed, regutted, slightly nerfed, etc, over and over again, so we swapped to another for the time being or just play other games until things get better/back to where they were/more balanced. I come here about twice a week checking on things to see if they're worth my time playing versus other games. When they are, I play again. But don't expect anything you suggest to be implemented here, for better or worse. I don't speak for anyone but myself, and I think the devs have pretty much heard it all before, 100 times over.
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Zhentarim
Posts: 133

Re: Idea for Improving Communication of Balance Changes

Post#12 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:43 am

wargrimnir wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 6:35 pm Players who get banned receive a PM for the reason why, and have a whole forum section to contest the ban if they feel it was unwarranted, which is exceedingly rare.
That is good but when you announce bannings ingame I wish you would be more clear on why the person was banned so it doesnt raise questions or make people believe that acceptable behaviour is unacceptable behaviour. Which is something you often see people in general go "What, Im not allowed to do that?" "That is bannable?". When I made that post just a few weeks earlier some guy name aoedps was permanently banned and all it said as reason was "naming". Was it the name aoedps that got him permanently banned? That doesnt make any sense, I guess he mustve had a ton of bad names on his account or something? When you ban people, it would be nice if it was very clear why that person was banned.
wargrimnir wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 6:35 pm Trying to summarize days or weeks of conversation around a balance change and all the context involved down to a couple concise sentences generally doesn't result in understanding and acceptance, but rather seems to invite further dissent and arguments. We get that response anyway for changes precisely when we expect to get them without adding fuel to that fire. Good faith dissent and discussion is increasingly rare to find. Players have biases at varying levels of awareness, and more than a few make some wild arguments to protect their interests. This happens in the general discussion forums, it happened when we ran balance changes through a dedicated balance forum, and it happens internally as well when focus on a single class drags on too long. The Realm Champion program tapped on a handful of players who we're hoping will make evaluations on our balance interests with an above average level of intellectual honesty about the state of each change we present.

Or more simply, getting burned for posting long form explanations really hurts the chances of more long form explanations. No one on the team is discouraged from writing out all their deepest thoughts on a specific change, they simply don't because it doesn't strike them as providing significant value for their time invested.
You are right, you can post anything and people will still whine. I dont want long form explanations, a one-liner under the change is fine like "We nerfed this because we think it overperformed here" that is really all, and people can take it or leave it. Rather than having people speculate why a change was made.

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sharpblader
Posts: 298

Re: Idea for Improving Communication of Balance Changes

Post#13 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:53 am

Spoiler:
Zhentarim wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:43 am
wargrimnir wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 6:35 pm Players who get banned receive a PM for the reason why, and have a whole forum section to contest the ban if they feel it was unwarranted, which is exceedingly rare.
That is good but when you announce bannings ingame I wish you would be more clear on why the person was banned so it doesnt raise questions or make people believe that acceptable behaviour is unacceptable behaviour. Which is something you often see people in general go "What, Im not allowed to do that?" "That is bannable?". When I made that post just a few weeks earlier some guy name aoedps was permanently banned and all it said as reason was "naming". Was it the name aoedps that got him permanently banned? That doesnt make any sense, I guess he mustve had a ton of bad names on his account or something? When you ban people, it would be nice if it was very clear why that person was banned.
wargrimnir wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 6:35 pm Trying to summarize days or weeks of conversation around a balance change and all the context involved down to a couple concise sentences generally doesn't result in understanding and acceptance, but rather seems to invite further dissent and arguments. We get that response anyway for changes precisely when we expect to get them without adding fuel to that fire. Good faith dissent and discussion is increasingly rare to find. Players have biases at varying levels of awareness, and more than a few make some wild arguments to protect their interests. This happens in the general discussion forums, it happened when we ran balance changes through a dedicated balance forum, and it happens internally as well when focus on a single class drags on too long. The Realm Champion program tapped on a handful of players who we're hoping will make evaluations on our balance interests with an above average level of intellectual honesty about the state of each change we present.

Or more simply, getting burned for posting long form explanations really hurts the chances of more long form explanations. No one on the team is discouraged from writing out all their deepest thoughts on a specific change, they simply don't because it doesn't strike them as providing significant value for their time invested.
You are right, you can post anything and people will still whine. I dont want long form explanations, a one-liner under the change is fine like "We nerfed this because we think it overperformed here" that is really all, and people can take it or leave it. Rather than having people speculate why a change was made.
The problem is that people dont leave it. Im personally guilty of it TBH.

Its very difficult to keep a civil discussion on balance changes in this forum. Mostly, it results in unwarranted hate and toxicity towards other players and developers which is neither worth anyone's time, nor good for the game.

Balance changes will keep on happening as they are required. So, I like the idea of class champions where the players dont feel that the developers (who also play the game) are biased overlords. And the developers also get to know what the community feels without the hate and toxicity.

Personally, I wish there was a way for players to communicate with individual class champions while they maintain anonymity. On the top of my head you can have separate discord channels where players can discuss about a class and champs can browse anonymously.

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normanis
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Re: Idea for Improving Communication of Balance Changes

Post#14 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:31 pm

it would be great if ppl really have conversation like gentlmens, not like this ooo x side op or get better or x faction complain and wine. (what leads to counter rubish. and its only stops at 10 or 20 page when noone even discus about main theme, byt open page become yellow press wher u insult athers)
"Iron Within, Iron Without!"

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GamesBond
Former Staff
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Re: Idea for Improving Communication of Balance Changes

Post#15 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:59 pm

sharpblader wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:53 am Personally, I wish there was a way for players to communicate with individual class champions while they maintain anonymity. On the top of my head you can have separate discord channels where players can discuss about a class and champs can browse anonymously.
Realm Champions can discuss class-related theories and prepare their initial proposals based on the feedback they've gathered from their close circle and their own experience/input. It's up to each one of them to decide what suits them better in order to propose better balance to the team. The reason why you don't know who they are isn't because we've forbidden that, but rather because they know the outcome and backlash that will come for any change that won't satisfy a few people.

Thaodan wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 10:58 am I understand your problem, however not communicating or better communicating by saying nothing does not make it better either.
I can understand that it feels **** that there are people how are like that, not only here but in every game.
In this case, I'm afraid our team understands that minimal communication for balance is for the greater good. Over the years, previous team members have tried opening up balance discussions and you can tell how the experience was in general. It's a small community and many players believe their way is THE way to balance their favorite class and rival classes. I can personally give you examples of veteran players who've raged when their own input wasn't fully taken into consideration.

Thaodan wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 10:58 am In general it would be useful that changes are better documented. Like for example patches notes should go to the wiki and not to the forum. Finding the actual is much harder in the long if we have to search the forum for changelogs/patchnotes vs. using the wiki with references and connected articles going back and forth.
We've started working on the Wiki since the start of this year, hopefully at some point we'll have the most important stuff updated. The Wiki Editors are doing marvelous jobs that one might not even have the motive to do.

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wargrimnir
Head Game Master
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Re: Idea for Improving Communication of Balance Changes

Post#16 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:00 pm

Zhentarim wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:43 am
wargrimnir wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 6:35 pm Players who get banned receive a PM for the reason why, and have a whole forum section to contest the ban if they feel it was unwarranted, which is exceedingly rare.
That is good but when you announce bannings ingame I wish you would be more clear on why the person was banned so it doesnt raise questions or make people believe that acceptable behaviour is unacceptable behaviour. Which is something you often see people in general go "What, Im not allowed to do that?" "That is bannable?". When I made that post just a few weeks earlier some guy name aoedps was permanently banned and all it said as reason was "naming". Was it the name aoedps that got him permanently banned? That doesnt make any sense, I guess he mustve had a ton of bad names on his account or something? When you ban people, it would be nice if it was very clear why that person was banned.
This one sucks. GM hit the wrong guy and he never appealed. I'm sending a message out to him personally.

The player the GM intended to perm had a similar name, but the offending names were racist enough not to be repeated.
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Zhentarim
Posts: 133

Re: Idea for Improving Communication of Balance Changes

Post#17 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:50 pm

wargrimnir wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:00 pm This one sucks. GM hit the wrong guy and he never appealed. I'm sending a message out to him personally.

The player the GM intended to perm had a similar name, but the offending names were racist enough not to be repeated.
Perma bans for bad names is a bit harsh. How do you plan to punish this GM for getting the name wrong and can you provide that GMs name? I cant remember it.

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wargrimnir
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Re: Idea for Improving Communication of Balance Changes

Post#18 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:19 pm

Zhentarim wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:50 pm
wargrimnir wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:00 pm This one sucks. GM hit the wrong guy and he never appealed. I'm sending a message out to him personally.

The player the GM intended to perm had a similar name, but the offending names were racist enough not to be repeated.
Perma bans for bad names is a bit harsh. How do you plan to punish this GM for getting the name wrong and can you provide that GMs name? I cant remember it.
It's been dealt with already, wish it would have been caught a while ago. I'm always available to look at anything you guys think is strange when it comes to GM activity. This was just a case of missing a letter when applying a ban, and the person affected hadn't logged in since November, so it's unlikely they even noticed. Regardless we both messaged him to apologize if he was actually impacted.

GM's aren't punished for doing their job and making a mistake. They're punished for abusing their power and acting outside of the guidelines they're provided.
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sharpblader
Posts: 298

Re: Idea for Improving Communication of Balance Changes

Post#19 » Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:26 am

GamesBond wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:59 pm Realm Champions can discuss class-related theories and prepare their initial proposals based on the feedback they've gathered from their close circle and their own experience/input. It's up to each one of them to decide what suits them better in order to propose better balance to the team. The reason why you don't know who they are isn't because we've forbidden that, but rather because they know the outcome and backlash that will come for any change that won't satisfy a few people.
Yes, thats why I said communicate while they maintain anonymity so that everyone can get a flavour of their collective proposals without the champs being personally exposed to backlash and harassment. Forbidden or not, I'm aware that making anything public is prone to backlash and toxicity.

In a perfect world, the champs would choose to collect feedback from the entire community rather than just their close circle. I know it's not possible. That's why it's just a personal wish. I agree with how things are now.

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Zhentarim
Posts: 133

Re: Idea for Improving Communication of Balance Changes

Post#20 » Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:55 pm

wargrimnir wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:19 pm It's been dealt with already, wish it would have been caught a while ago. I'm always available to look at anything you guys think is strange when it comes to GM activity. This was just a case of missing a letter when applying a ban, and the person affected hadn't logged in since November, so it's unlikely they even noticed. Regardless we both messaged him to apologize if he was actually impacted.

GM's aren't punished for doing their job and making a mistake. They're punished for abusing their power and acting outside of the guidelines they're provided.
Sure mistakes happen and its good that he apologized but you would think a person dealing with perma bans would look not once but three times at the name before he announces a perma ban for everyone to see. Just strip him of his ability to ban people and give out his name, so the next time he does a mistake we have something to point to. We should keep a record on all GMs otherwise they are bound to act out eventually, you need to police them.

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