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Suggestion to players

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Structured class balance suggestions belong in the Balance Proposal subforum. Class-related discussion in this section are considered as ongoing debates and ARE NOT reviewed for balance changes.
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Arbich
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Posts: 788

Re: Suggestion to players

Post#11 » Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:22 am

Ysaran wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:15 am
Arbich wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 8:12 am
Ysaran wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 7:36 am
Devs promised a rSH rework in the same patchnotes where they reworked the SW, it' not something that was asked by the crowd.
Anyway, I agree with Kabu. Instead of complaining and asking for nerfs, you should focus on finding proper startegy to counter rSH. Start gathering infos by opening a thread on "how to counter rSH", then see which kind of buffs are needed and on which class, and then make a proposal in the BDF. It will take some time, but it's the right route
I disagree. Its a stupid route.
For balance buffs and nerfs go hand in hand. By your logic the rsh was too weak before the rework in comparison to other classes and therfor needed a buff? Now the other classes are too weak in comparison to the rsh and need a buff? What makes you think that the balance mark is hit this time? Probably the then reworked classes are too strong, therfor other classes need buffs also... Or are you proposing buffs that only work against a specific class (the rsh)?

I think the performance of rsh needs futher evaluation, but I lean to rework/nerf him a bit.
I get your point, it's not simple to understand if the balance hit the mark with this SH rework. But reality is that beside some clunky thoerycrafting attempt, I've seen no hard proof of rSH overperforming (no combat log, no parser, no test on Training Construct, no videos). Untill you prove that rSH is overperforming, you have to adapt and try to undertsand how to outplay it (and thus why I suggested to to open a thread about it). If you find no way to outplay a rSH than you can make a proposal on the BDF to either: give to Order some tool to counter it or to nerf rSH.
I might agree that rSH is overperforming, but until now I saw only some stupid Scenario's Scoreboard SS and a lot of complaining. I don't play the class and actually I'm on order since some time so I get why all the frustration, but still I saw no hard proof. Thus, I agree with Kabu: if you can't gather proof of overperfoming, then use the common knowledge to understend how to beat it. And if it result impossible to beat, then propose a change.
I've never said that rSH was too weak, actually this rework is the reason why I stopped playing it.
I didn´t mean you specifically. But rsh got unquestionable a buff, so he had to be considered as too weak by some (as rdps in general are underperforming in most game settings, I would actually agree to this statement).
I just don´t like the attitude of "no, dont nerf this this class!!! buff the other class(es) instead." But I think we are in agreement about this.
Arbich-BW/Xanthippe-WP/Schnipsel-AM

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jughurta69
Posts: 113

Re: Suggestion to players

Post#12 » Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:43 am

rSH have a burst to high. he can kill light amor with only one cast ( stun) . having rSH on you is more dangerous than WE

WE take risk for kill , go to back line ( the same for WH) .Where is the logic when a range have the same burst than a LIGHT ARMOR MELEE ?????

i speak for all range not only SH , but SH is by far the one with the most burst in the stun, the most mobility and survival

SH is superior in ST and by far than SW due to its rotation, the number of gcds to install its dps


all time too many players just talk aoe
Have seen here that the ST has its place, but that the ST range is as powerful (see +) as a ST melee light armor. No it's too much

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MMXX43
Posts: 223

Re: Suggestion to players

Post#13 » Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:44 am

No evidence ?
Where is that panel with all the cc's in game clearly showing SH having THE MOST from ALL the classes ingame ?
Anything else is bias cloaked with forum "civility"

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Ysaran
Posts: 1220

Re: Suggestion to players

Post#14 » Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:55 am

MMXX43 wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:44 am No evidence ?
Where is that panel with all the cc's in game clearly showing SH having THE MOST from ALL the classes ingame ?
Anything else is bias cloaked with forum "civility"
^this is what I'm referring to when I say "clunky theorycrafting". Who cares about SH's CCs, balance is made:
1) realm wide
2) inter realm, i.e. comparing class of the same realm
3) maintaining the realm identity that the Devs choose

That list is just a list, with no more value than my shopping list
Zputadenti

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Asherdoom
Posts: 661

Re: Suggestion to players

Post#15 » Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:59 am

i do not play SH but i tell ya: ppl complaining are the same that were playing White lion maybe prior his nerf. instead of complain get used to your class. I play sorcerer do I come crying here about wl op or SW that can 3 shot me? No, i learn to adapt. whining on forum is plain pathetic.
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teiloh
Posts: 691

Re: Suggestion to players

Post#16 » Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:02 am

Ysaran wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:55 am ^this is what I'm referring to when I say "clunky theorycrafting". Who cares about SH's CCs, balance is made:
1) realm wide
2) inter realm, i.e. comparing class of the same realm
3) maintaining the realm identity that the Devs choose

That list is just a list, with no more value than my shopping list
I suppose in that case, giving Bright Wizards AOE Knockdown on backdraft, Shadow Warriors a melee snare, and White Lions a x-long AOE punt should be fine.

Who cares about individual class CCs? Balance is made realm wide, inter realm, and maintaining the realm identity the Devs choose.

Btw, realmwide Destro has more CC and in better forms, and the rSH is a big part of that equation.

jughurta69
Posts: 113

Re: Suggestion to players

Post#17 » Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:50 am

Ysaran wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:55 am
MMXX43 wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:44 am No evidence ?
Where is that panel with all the cc's in game clearly showing SH having THE MOST from ALL the classes ingame ?
Anything else is bias cloaked with forum "civility"
^this is what I'm referring to when I say "clunky theorycrafting". Who cares about SH's CCs, balance is made:
1) realm wide
2) inter realm, i.e. comparing class of the same realm
3) maintaining the realm identity that the Devs choose

That list is just a list, with no more value than my shopping list
On RoR the dev has drastically increased the dps / burst range

AoR had put all CCs on SH / SW because their ranged and melee dps was average

They might be time to withdraw CC or to rethink them differently (mechanic, required etc ...)

the same for mine and daemonic infestation 2 s cast and longer CD

Sham / Arch with tactics dps, impossible to use cure and m3 divine protection
(the same for DoK / WP dps and in the future RP / Zealot)

Tank dps When 2H impossible to equip distrating below and impose your 1st idea 25% on guard in 2H

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Winry
Posts: 59

Re: Suggestion to players

Post#18 » Mon Jan 25, 2021 12:22 pm

Imagine justifing the amount of stuff SH get as An hybride class they have a range knockdown, aoe pund, pounce, run away, the run away tactic, A charge that mini punds and doesent give immunties with a 75 % movement speed, 50% healing taken, a couldown increase ability, another aoe pund the explosieve arrow, a mini bellow every 45 sec, An aoe movement slow morale and these are just the things i can Remember without looking it up

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Gurf
Posts: 519

Re: Suggestion to players

Post#19 » Mon Jan 25, 2021 12:46 pm

If the trend continues the WL (which is supposed to be the counter to SH) is more likely to be further nerfed than buffed. At the moment with the recently changes the WL in a standard Warband spec has 0 cc except 15ft interrupt, no knockdown, silence or pull as those are tied to Pet (melee range pets still don't work at Warband level) and no Pounce as you have to give up its main single target damage to now spec Pounce. The only thing it has to deal with SH is M1 root.

In a roaming single target spec with pet you can kill range SH if you get the jump on them and open up on them, if SH sees you first they have a dozen tools to counter what WL brings. That spec lacks armour debuff though so if you come across a MSH you are dead. In Melee SH vs WL 1v1 it is roughly 50-50 when equally geared and spec for duel (as tested out by a r80 WL) which isn't really balanced considering all the cc and other tools SH gets.

So there isn't a WL spec which counters both ranged and MSH. I am not sure a way round this without buffing WL to a level which could make it OP, or nerfing SH to a more balanced level.

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NSKaneda
Posts: 968

Re: Suggestion to players

Post#20 » Mon Jan 25, 2021 12:51 pm

Gurf wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 12:46 pm So there isn't a WL spec which counters both ranged and MSH. I am not sure a way round this without buffing WL to a level which could make it OP, or nerfing SH to a more balanced level.

Feel free to take away rKD and rKB but give back range ;)
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