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SM Changes

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Structured class balance suggestions belong in the Balance Proposal subforum. Class-related discussion in this section are considered as ongoing debates and ARE NOT reviewed for balance changes.
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forsa
Posts: 139

Re: SM Changes

Post#61 » Sun Apr 25, 2021 11:13 am

detrap wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 8:38 am snip
There was an in depth reply, but then it struck me that this already happened not long ago.

Kudos to Uchoo for summing it up back than.
Uchoo wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 5:44 pm
detrap wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 3:48 am
Just stop lol. EVERYTHING you say is wrong. The only thing you have proven wrong is yourself. Everything you post is anecdotal, a logical fallacy or a flat-out lie. Btw, you realize that admitting that you never used MS even further destroys the credibility which you never had, right? You're just a troll.

Anyway, I was hoping to get more feedback from the community but seeing as it's just Detrap left in here, time to talk to staff.
Back on the topic:

WW needs to be changed to no target like BO.

Phoenix Wing - Change to 10s cooldown, move to perfect stance, add 10% heal debuff for 10s. Two hander spec brings nothing particularly interesting to the table, at least having some kind of debuff on this ability would provide a reason. Heal debuff off the table, feel free to substitute something else of value. It just needs something. The damage sure isn't worth it.
10% healdebuff is nothing to write home about compared to losing spammable, CHEAP, 2 stance, spirit frontal aoe. Elemental resist debuff on the other hand...

Perfect Defenses - 5% stacking defense bonuses (10% max) on stance change (excluding sudden shift) that lasts for 3s. Basically if you are constantly moving through your stances and attacking, you get the bonus. You stop, you get nothing. Embraces the mechanic and the identity of SM as an "offensive" or active tank.
Agree
Calming Winds - As above change tactic to embrace the mechanic. 10% stacking disrupt bonus (20% max) on stance change (excluding sudden shift) that lasts for 3s. Same reasoning as above.
Agree
Eagle's Flight - Change to 10s cooldown and maintain 25% parry. May be just style preference but I find it annoying having to choose to maintain this all the time or do something else. Rather have it be long enough I can work through a couple of different rotations whether it hits or not.
Agree
Gusting Winds - Change name to "Cyclonic Vortex" and change from punt to pull. Maintain 10s cooldown. I'd miss bridge punting but that is about all I'd miss with this change.
I love this idea.

Lastly, if "HealMaster" is supposed to be a thing then "Blessing of Heaven" and "Bolstering Enchantments" need to heal for at least double current strength on others. SwordMaster self-healing should be same or zero if that balances out the books.
How about improving the Blessings of Heaven, Isha's Protection and Bolstering Enchantment tactics each to increase SM outgoing heal by 10% ?

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tazdingo
Posts: 1200

Re: SM Changes

Post#62 » Sun Apr 25, 2021 11:49 am

why would you run PD in lieu of cycling eagles flight? i don't like that tactic on BO either, or inconsistent forms of defense in general. SM has these in spades

- i lvled exclusively with SCs should be said, in wb it was fine, all shield tanks by default are

- i also agree with the above agreed with ideas

CytheX
Posts: 105

Re: SM Changes

Post#63 » Sun Apr 25, 2021 12:20 pm

Laelthrin wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:09 am give him ranged KD, some inmmunity he cannot be hit and let him oneshot people, tto many whinersd on forums for this or that, i do not have that but that one has, levae the little baby mentality, and if you cannot go plmay pokemon
Sm is supposed to be 2h tank not a pokemon with sword and board, try to play 1 and than try Bo, than u will see the difference. Ty

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Paxsanarion
Posts: 302

Re: SM Changes

Post#64 » Sun Apr 25, 2021 1:36 pm

detrap wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:15 am
tazdingo wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:58 am recently leveled an snb SM. it was bad

- remarkably squishier than any other def tank, i swear mara is tankier. poor choice of def tactics, low base toughness + no self buff. my knight feels like he can take 3x more dmg than my sm

- bad avoidance. eagles flight is a pain to keep up when you're trying to cycle in core non-builder abilities. perfect defenses is bad because unlike bo you can't sit in final stance when under pressure, you need to constantly cycle eagles flight & bubble

- vauls tempering remains a weird ability in a weird tree. the armour + block buff is competing with eagles flight for a precious gcd. st punt is difficult to use offensively due to block proc

i think changes could come in the form of tactics improving certain abilities as sm has a few borderline useless tactics that could be cannibalized
Snb SM survivability is fine, stack toughness, PD CW Rugged and IP, sit in final stance, htl and your tanky as anything. Bubble up on CD and skip middle stance and you should be fine.

The trouble is you cant access all the other abilities while simply sitting in Perfect Stance to be tanky......and thus you cant do all the things you listed in your earlier post. This is what makes Knight / Chosen.....and BO provide so much utility while still being much tankier.......

"What full utility does a knight and chosen have in tanky spec that puts them well above the SM? SM's have 2 AoE punts, an AoE interrupt, cleave, undefendable long punt and AoE pounce/snare. The majority of the time knights are just using auras and spamming hold the line. SM can similarly stat steal, buff wounds and resis with an aoe into their full tanky perfect stance. BO is the same. Your group buffs will proc on nearly all aoe against multiple targets. Your WoH/CA attack leads in perfect stance, which is where calming winds and perfect defences tactics shine."

Just trying to make sense of how to make the SM SnB more attractive to play while still helping the WB as a true tank with utility, I could be off the mark with my thinking :-)
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detrap
Posts: 352
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Re: SM Changes

Post#65 » Sun Apr 25, 2021 3:44 pm

Spoiler:
forsa wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 11:13 am
detrap wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 8:38 am snip
There was an in depth reply, but then it struck me that this already happened not long ago.

Kudos to Uchoo for summing it up back than.
Uchoo wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 5:44 pm
detrap wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 3:48 am
Just stop lol. EVERYTHING you say is wrong. The only thing you have proven wrong is yourself. Everything you post is anecdotal, a logical fallacy or a flat-out lie. Btw, you realize that admitting that you never used MS even further destroys the credibility which you never had, right? You're just a troll.

Anyway, I was hoping to get more feedback from the community but seeing as it's just Detrap left in here, time to talk to staff.
Back on the topic:

WW needs to be changed to no target like BO.

Phoenix Wing - Change to 10s cooldown, move to perfect stance, add 10% heal debuff for 10s. Two hander spec brings nothing particularly interesting to the table, at least having some kind of debuff on this ability would provide a reason. Heal debuff off the table, feel free to substitute something else of value. It just needs something. The damage sure isn't worth it.
10% healdebuff is nothing to write home about compared to losing spammable, CHEAP, 2 stance, spirit frontal aoe. Elemental resist debuff on the other hand...

Perfect Defenses - 5% stacking defense bonuses (10% max) on stance change (excluding sudden shift) that lasts for 3s. Basically if you are constantly moving through your stances and attacking, you get the bonus. You stop, you get nothing. Embraces the mechanic and the identity of SM as an "offensive" or active tank.
Agree
Calming Winds - As above change tactic to embrace the mechanic. 10% stacking disrupt bonus (20% max) on stance change (excluding sudden shift) that lasts for 3s. Same reasoning as above.
Agree
Eagle's Flight - Change to 10s cooldown and maintain 25% parry. May be just style preference but I find it annoying having to choose to maintain this all the time or do something else. Rather have it be long enough I can work through a couple of different rotations whether it hits or not.
Agree
Gusting Winds - Change name to "Cyclonic Vortex" and change from punt to pull. Maintain 10s cooldown. I'd miss bridge punting but that is about all I'd miss with this change.
I love this idea.

Lastly, if "HealMaster" is supposed to be a thing then "Blessing of Heaven" and "Bolstering Enchantments" need to heal for at least double current strength on others. SwordMaster self-healing should be same or zero if that balances out the books.
How about improving the Blessings of Heaven, Isha's Protection and Bolstering Enchantment tactics each to increase SM outgoing heal by 10% ?
Talk about farfetched...AoE pull...Eagles flight does not stack with wods anyways, BG already has a similar mechanic for its defences, maybe you should play that instead if you haven't. So let's make 3 tanks mirror each other? That would make all tanks get a heal debuff then as well?
Knight 8x - IB 8x - SM 8x / Chosen 3x - BO 4x - BG 5x

arorwne
Suspended
Posts: 235

Re: SM Changes

Post#66 » Sun Apr 25, 2021 4:13 pm

Yes, I'd like if Eagle's Flight lasted longer. That alone would make Swordmaster much more comfortable to play.

But SM is pretty much in a good place right now. You can 2H, you can S+S, you can be a Healmaster(lolz), all 3 Paths are honestly good...the only thing I don't like is over reliance on WW. Apart from that...nah, it's a very good tank. BlOrk could be considered better, but BlOrk don't have Spt dmg type(only phys iirc).

Again, wouldn't say no if Eagle's Flight and co lasted 10s, but even without that...SM is far away from "1 viable path" like BG(Malice aka 2H in that case) and co.

User avatar
Sinisterror
Posts: 838

Re: SM Changes

Post#67 » Sun Apr 25, 2021 4:34 pm

If i remember right SM is only tank when you create new char starts with 2h? Small 20-30 feet aoe pull would make perfect sense for SM. This would remove aoe kb, so Redirected force should be added parry req and remove shield req so you can do it with 2h&snb. Make it steep and a bit longer kb when using 2h than what it is now.

Eagle's flight should be 10 seconds long or make it 5 sec long and stacking 3 times up to 15 seconds. Add 5-10 dodge & disrupt to perfect defenses. Add to phoenix wing 25 % chance to "stun"target for 1 second, doesnt grand immunity and stuns thru immunity ( Dazzling strikes should add 1 second cast time increase even to instant/melee skills 10 sec cooldown)

Change Quick incision (snare) to what deep incision does but spirit dmg ofc. Change Deep incision to something like funnel power/reckless gamble like skill. Everytime you do direct dmg excluding auto attack you do small amount of dmg to enemy ( or change Deep inc tactic to make AA spirit dmg)
Sapping strike new effect 10 second cd, you gain the action points instead of taking them. Oh and WW should require improved balance and should be undefendable + remove silence.

MOST IMPORTANT is to bring back Absorb version of Phantom's blade<3
"To clarify, me asking to developers to go test their own changes is not sign of toxicity or anger, but a sign of hope that the people punching in the numbers remain aware of potential consequences and test their own changes"-Teefz

Laelthrin
Suspended
Posts: 22

Re: SM Changes

Post#68 » Sun Apr 25, 2021 5:21 pm

Is normal that BO and SM not have the same abilities, that is what this game was supposed to be, no mirroring, now a lot say he can do that i wanna do that too, kindergarten mentality, grow up ffs

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tazdingo
Posts: 1200

Re: SM Changes

Post#69 » Sun Apr 25, 2021 5:50 pm

Laelthrin wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 5:21 pm Is normal that BO and SM not have the same abilities, that is what this game was supposed to be, no mirroring, now a lot say he can do that i wanna do that too, kindergarten mentality, grow up ffs

there is nothing wrong with comparing classes to their intended mirrors when discussing balance, get this idea of most people being sycophantic about individual classes out of your head because it is not the norm. this server is pretty old and lots of players have played multiple classes over both realms. BO is my all time main but i can admit that it has many advantages over SM, particularly having a bellow that procs on hit, superior defensive tools and a much easier time mitigating guard dmg. i'm not gonna fight in BOs corner tooth and nail at the expense of overall game balance just cause it's my favorite class.

CytheX
Posts: 105

Re: SM Changes

Post#70 » Sun Apr 25, 2021 6:08 pm

Laelthrin wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 5:21 pm Is normal that BO and SM not have the same abilities, that is what this game was supposed to be, no mirroring, now a lot say he can do that i wanna do that too, kindergarten mentality, grow up ffs
Sm and BO are 1 of the closest mirror in the game and almost the same skill with the same role, but 1 whit crazy stuf and another with redundant and poorly designed tattics.

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