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SM Changes

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detrap
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Re: SM Changes

Post#51 » Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:15 am

tazdingo wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:58 am recently leveled an snb SM. it was bad

- remarkably squishier than any other def tank, i swear mara is tankier. poor choice of def tactics, low base toughness + no self buff. my knight feels like he can take 3x more dmg than my sm

- bad avoidance. eagles flight is a pain to keep up when you're trying to cycle in core non-builder abilities. perfect defenses is bad because unlike bo you can't sit in final stance when under pressure, you need to constantly cycle eagles flight & bubble

- vauls tempering remains a weird ability in a weird tree. the armour + block buff is competing with eagles flight for a precious gcd. st punt is difficult to use offensively due to block proc

i think changes could come in the form of tactics improving certain abilities as sm has a few borderline useless tactics that could be cannibalized
Snb SM survivability is fine, stack toughness, PD CW Rugged and IP, sit in final stance, htl and your tanky as anything. Bubble up on CD and skip middle stance and you should be fine.

Time your rotations with shield wall m2 or immaculate defense for those funnel situations.

2H is the most tankiest you'll be for an order tank as well. No need to worry about eagles flight then.

Armour and block buff has a CD anyway, I honestly hardly use eagles flight unless I'm really low health, snaring/aoe/morale drain is used more or skipped altogether with sudden shift.

ST is always available anyways with guard. It's only annoying because it's a 20s CD but it's undefendable and black orcs don't get anything like it so it's fine.
Knight 8x - IB 8x - SM 8x / Chosen 3x - BO 4x - BG 5x

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Strakar
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Re: SM Changes

Post#52 » Sun Apr 25, 2021 1:28 am

Not sure if it's the same with other tanks to sacrifice all your utility for tankiness, but to go with the above build would make you basically useless as anything but a guard and WW bot.

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detrap
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Re: SM Changes

Post#53 » Sun Apr 25, 2021 2:55 am

Strakar wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 1:28 am Not sure if it's the same with other tanks to sacrifice all your utility for tankiness, but to go with the above build would make you basically useless as anything but a guard and WW bot.
It's the same for all tanks, you are not useless if you are taking little damage, holding the front line and not stressing your healers out. It's a big deal. You are generally more useless trying to go damage/utility and sacrificing survivability in orvr.
Knight 8x - IB 8x - SM 8x / Chosen 3x - BO 4x - BG 5x

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Aethilmar
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Re: SM Changes

Post#54 » Sun Apr 25, 2021 3:32 am

detrap wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 2:55 am
Strakar wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 1:28 am Not sure if it's the same with other tanks to sacrifice all your utility for tankiness, but to go with the above build would make you basically useless as anything but a guard and WW bot.
It's the same for all tanks, you are not useless if you are taking little damage, holding the front line and not stressing your healers out. It's a big deal. You are generally more useless trying to go damage/utility and sacrificing survivability in orvr.
Not true. It most certainly is not the same for Knights and Chosen. They can go super tanky and still have full utility. It is kind of their thing.

BO also can go super tanky and maintain their general utility.

Things get a little more nuanced for BG but mostly b/c their utility is not WB friendly.

As for IB I cannot speak to as I'm not familiar with their current state. Although they can be so stupidly tanky that giving up a little bit of their max tankiness to reach for utility doesn't really cost them anything.

But SM have to attack to do their things (WW, heals, stat steal). And when they attack their tanky tactics lose their effectiveness. Hence among my original suggestions to lean into their mechanic and make the survivability tactics more effective as they move through their stances and provide no benefit when they do not.

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detrap
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Re: SM Changes

Post#55 » Sun Apr 25, 2021 5:36 am

Aethilmar wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 3:32 am
detrap wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 2:55 am
Strakar wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 1:28 am Not sure if it's the same with other tanks to sacrifice all your utility for tankiness, but to go with the above build would make you basically useless as anything but a guard and WW bot.
It's the same for all tanks, you are not useless if you are taking little damage, holding the front line and not stressing your healers out. It's a big deal. You are generally more useless trying to go damage/utility and sacrificing survivability in orvr.
Not true. It most certainly is not the same for Knights and Chosen. They can go super tanky and still have full utility. It is kind of their thing.

BO also can go super tanky and maintain their general utility.

Things get a little more nuanced for BG but mostly b/c their utility is not WB friendly.

As for IB I cannot speak to as I'm not familiar with their current state. Although they can be so stupidly tanky that giving up a little bit of their max tankiness to reach for utility doesn't really cost them anything.

But SM have to attack to do their things (WW, heals, stat steal). And when they attack their tanky tactics lose their effectiveness. Hence among my original suggestions to lean into their mechanic and make the survivability tactics more effective as they move through their stances and provide no benefit when they do not.
What full utility does a knight and chosen have in tanky spec that puts them well above the SM? SM's have 2 AoE punts, an AoE interrupt, cleave, undefendable long punt and AoE pounce/snare. The majority of the time knights are just using auras and spamming hold the line. SM can similarly stat steal, buff wounds and resis with an aoe into their full tanky perfect stance. BO is the same. Your group buffs will proc on nearly all aoe against multiple targets. Your WoH/CA attack leads in perfect stance, which is where calming winds and perfect defences tactics shine.

I've seen SM's running 60% block and over 90% disrupt in final stance. That lasts 10 seconds then you rotate back into your 700 hp bubble > AoE/Shift > back into final stance + HTL/WODS. That's a decent rotation when you are at the front.

If you wan't to compare the knight, they need to also make sure he lands he's block buff which is just as difficult because a knight with 100 str hitting a tank in the front lines doesn't work well. At least the SM doesn't need to do this.

Premade WB's will have there own required specs, but generally your role as a tank in Orvr is to be the hardest to kill. If survivability is still an issue then there's a problem with gear and renown.
Knight 8x - IB 8x - SM 8x / Chosen 3x - BO 4x - BG 5x

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forsa
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Re: SM Changes

Post#56 » Sun Apr 25, 2021 7:42 am

Spoiler:
detrap wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 5:36 am What full utility does a knight and chosen have in tanky spec that puts them well above the SM? SM's have 2 AoE punts, an AoE interrupt, cleave, undefendable long punt and AoE pounce/snare. The majority of the time knights are just using auras and spamming hold the line. SM can similarly stat steal, buff wounds and resis with an aoe into their full tanky perfect stance. BO is the same. Your group buffs will proc on nearly all aoe against multiple targets. Your WoH/CA attack leads in perfect stance, which is where calming winds and perfect defences tactics shine.

I've seen SM's running 60% block and over 90% disrupt in final stance. That lasts 10 seconds then you rotate back into your 700 hp bubble > AoE/Shift > back into final stance + HTL/WODS. That's a decent rotation when you are at the front.

If you wan't to compare the knight, they need to also make sure he lands he's block buff which is just as difficult because a knight with 100 str hitting a tank in the front lines doesn't work well. At least the SM doesn't need to do this.

Premade WB's will have there own required specs, but generally your role as a tank in Orvr is to be the hardest to kill. If survivability is still an issue then there's a problem with gear and renown.
Too much theorycraft.
What full utility does a knight and chosen have in tanky spec that puts them well above the SM?
On demand st punt (sm needs block+ looooong animation, letting your target run from desired punt direction), heal buff/debuff via aura with 100% uptime, crit/anticrit partywide buff, ap aura, aoe stagger, reliable kd (same as st punt - animation is long and unreliable for sm)

SM's have 2 AoE punts, an AoE interrupt, cleave, undefendable long punt and AoE pounce/snare.
Interrupt in 15ft cone is hardly aoe,but whatever.
What is the name of second AoE punt? Cleave is PW ?

SM can similarly stat steal, buff wounds and resis with an aoe into their full tanky perfect stance. BO is the same.
And instantly return to no stance cause WW, DT, CW and DS are not gonna happen themselves.
Also, SM is very ap starved if WoH is spammed. BO has slightly lesser issues due to ap regen buff.

Your group buffs will proc on nearly all aoe against multiple targets.
25% chance is still not 100% auras uptime.
SM has a chance to buff resists/armor on attack, BO buffs on being attacked.
Statsteal does not always steal what you need and not from persons you want - compared to str/tough/resist aura amid mdd.
Wounds buff is simple ~400hp every 10 sec, roughly same as ch/kn regen aura in provided time period.
But ch/kn have 3 of them at the same time.

Your WoH/CA attack leads in perfect stance, which is where calming winds and perfect defences tactics shine.
In theory yes, in reality PD and CW against sm/bo mechanic (thus the suggested change).

I've seen SM's running 60% block and over 90% disrupt in final stance. That lasts 10 seconds then you rotate back into your 700 hp bubble > AoE/Shift > back into final stance + HTL/WODS. That's a decent rotation when you are at the front.
If i remember correctly, defences are capped at 75%. Anyway, if you are standing as SM in final stance (outside of pve) - you are doing it wrong.

If you wan't to compare the knight, they need to also make sure he lands he's block buff which is just as difficult because a knight with 100 str hitting a tank in the front lines doesn't work well. At least the SM doesn't need to do this.
Whispering Wind.

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Bozzax
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Re: SM Changes

Post#57 » Sun Apr 25, 2021 8:20 am

Easy solution .. play a knight if you want to be a knight

SM is cool and quite strong already
A reasonable RvR system that could make the majority happy http://imgur.com/HL6cgl7

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detrap
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Re: SM Changes

Post#58 » Sun Apr 25, 2021 8:38 am

forsa wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 7:42 am
Spoiler:
detrap wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 5:36 am What full utility does a knight and chosen have in tanky spec that puts them well above the SM? SM's have 2 AoE punts, an AoE interrupt, cleave, undefendable long punt and AoE pounce/snare. The majority of the time knights are just using auras and spamming hold the line. SM can similarly stat steal, buff wounds and resis with an aoe into their full tanky perfect stance. BO is the same. Your group buffs will proc on nearly all aoe against multiple targets. Your WoH/CA attack leads in perfect stance, which is where calming winds and perfect defences tactics shine.

I've seen SM's running 60% block and over 90% disrupt in final stance. That lasts 10 seconds then you rotate back into your 700 hp bubble > AoE/Shift > back into final stance + HTL/WODS. That's a decent rotation when you are at the front.

If you wan't to compare the knight, they need to also make sure he lands he's block buff which is just as difficult because a knight with 100 str hitting a tank in the front lines doesn't work well. At least the SM doesn't need to do this.

Premade WB's will have there own required specs, but generally your role as a tank in Orvr is to be the hardest to kill. If survivability is still an issue then there's a problem with gear and renown.
Spoiler:
Too much theorycraft.
What full utility does a knight and chosen have in tanky spec that puts them well above the SM?
On demand st punt (sm needs block+ looooong animation, letting your target run from desired punt direction), heal buff/debuff via aura with 100% uptime, crit/anticrit partywide buff, ap aura, aoe stagger, reliable kd (same as st punt - animation is long and unreliable for sm)

SM's have 2 AoE punts, an AoE interrupt, cleave, undefendable long punt and AoE pounce/snare.
Interrupt in 15ft cone is hardly aoe,but whatever.
What is the name of second AoE punt? Cleave is PW ?

SM can similarly stat steal, buff wounds and resis with an aoe into their full tanky perfect stance. BO is the same.
And instantly return to no stance cause WW, DT, CW and DS are not gonna happen themselves.
Also, SM is very ap starved if WoH is spammed. BO has slightly lesser issues due to ap regen buff.

Your group buffs will proc on nearly all aoe against multiple targets.
25% chance is still not 100% auras uptime, SM has a chance to buff resists on attack, BO buffs on being attacked. Statsteal does not always steal what you need and not from persons you want - compared to str/tough/resist aura amid mdd.
Wounds buff is simple ~400hp every 10 sec, comprable to ch/kn regen aura in same time period.
But ch/kn have 3 of them.

Your WoH/CA attack leads in perfect stance, which is where calming winds and perfect defences tactics shine.
In theory yes, in reality PD and CW against sm/bo mechanic (thus the suggested change).

I've seen SM's running 60% block and over 90% disrupt in final stance. That lasts 10 seconds then you rotate back into your 700 hp bubble > AoE/Shift > back into final stance + HTL/WODS. That's a decent rotation when you are at the front.
If i remember correctly, defences are capped at 75%. Anyway, if you are standing as SM in final stance (outside of pve) - you are doing it wrong.

If you wan't to compare the knight, they need to also make sure he lands he's block buff which is just as difficult because a knight with 100 str hitting a tank in the front lines doesn't work well. At least the SM doesn't need to do this.
Whispering Wind.


Too much theorycraft.

It's not too much theorycraft, it's one of the basic rotations to the SM. Why would you try to hop, skip and jump out of your stances in an orvr fight when you are taking too much damage during a 1fps fight? My point is SM survivability and utility is fine, keep a simple rotation and you will have no issues support the front lines in any engagement. Your healers will thank you as well.

On demand st punt (sm needs block+ looooong animation, letting your target run from desired punt direction), heal buff/debuff via aura with 100% uptime, crit/anticrit partywide buff, ap aura, aoe stagger, reliable kd (same as st punt - animation is long and unreliable for sm)

Apples and oranges...Punt is up 100% of the time thanks to guard. Knight/Chosen cannot AoE interrupt, AoE punt, undefendable AoE mega punt, pounce with AoE snare. Stealing initative is equivalent to approx 5% increase/decrease chance to be crit. Yes blade enchantments aren't as reliable however they can steal and buff more stats at one time and throw WW into the argument which is still superior in most cases.

ST knockdown or most knockbacks on any tank class isn't reliable anyway because it can be defended against and often as when running around with 200 str.

If i remember correctly, defences are capped at 75%. Anyway, if you are standing as SM in final stance (outside of pve) - you are doing it wrong.

No cap at 75%. If you think you are doing it wrong having an extra 10% block+parry and 20% disrupt when being focused, then you don't understand proper rotations when your main job is to stay alive. With 2h in perfect stance you can have better level of survivability compared to knights and ib's. Unfortunately SM's don't have a defensive channel with snb. Not worth trying to use something like raking talons in orvr when toe to toe with a black orc spamming block channel and giving up my survivability when taking a lot of damage.

It's not theory crafting, its just using the basics of the mechanic, so if I'm taking a lot of damage and need to reduce it, I sit in perfect stance until its safe to change. All this and you can still have access WW. So I don't understand where this 'buff my survivability' and 'no utility' is coming from. Claims of being a winds bot comes from players that maybe haven't played another tank class in similar builds.

Whispering Wind.

Yes cooldown decreaser is superior to most of the abilities a snb knight/ib bring to the table, with the only annoying part being you have to be in melee range. Being a two hit ability it is very easy to proc when targeting anyones backside.
Last edited by detrap on Sun Apr 25, 2021 8:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
Knight 8x - IB 8x - SM 8x / Chosen 3x - BO 4x - BG 5x

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CytheX
Posts: 105

Re: SM Changes

Post#59 » Sun Apr 25, 2021 8:45 am

SM just need his all resist debuff back, maybe via tattic or morale.

Laelthrin
Suspended
Posts: 22

Re: SM Changes

Post#60 » Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:09 am

give him ranged KD, some inmmunity he cannot be hit and let him oneshot people, tto many whinersd on forums for this or that, i do not have that but that one has, levae the little baby mentality, and if you cannot go plmay pokemon

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