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Rebalancing Attributes: A chance for more diversity

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zulnam
Posts: 760

Re: Rebalancing Attributes: A chance for more diversity

Post#51 » Wed Feb 03, 2021 12:12 am

I have mixed feelings about this, but it does sound interesting. (
Spoiler:
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)

The stat changes are small; almost negligible. This makes it desirable to try out. But we don't know how it would affect RvR. Remember that one side is more oriented towards melee while the other towards range (in my experience). And these changes, while giving something to every class, would add up to affect the outcome of battles where hundreds of players are involved. And to me, it sounds like these changes would favour melee above all, thanks to stat attribution as well as the autoattack speed.

Let's discuss a simplified RvR example:
We have 600 people participating in an RvR lake, 300 on each side.
Of these numbers, on both sides, 200 are dps.
Of these, Side A has 125 mdps and 75 ranged, while side B has 100 mdps and 100 ranged.

Now, melee classes tend to have more Ini and Toughness than ranged, from base stats as well as sets. Not only that, but RvR ranged classes sometimes aim for glass cannons, having initiative and toughness as low as 200, even lower sometimes; because of stat attribution. And there is only so much you can fix/alter with talismans.

This means that a faction that favours melee, in our case by 25 players, would have a bigger advantage than the one that does range. And while ranged would receive some buffs (the same), the lion's share would go to melee: more speed, faster autoattacks, more HP, smaller crits. In time, if the player base feels that melee is advantaged, it will fall even more in that direction. At best, this means less and less ranged classes; at worst, this means one faction will remain to traditional numbers while the other one will turn heavily towards melee, making the difference even harder to ignore.

Of course range is range, but not all range is equal; AoE ranges tend to be below 100 feet (65-80 feet in general), while melee AoE has the same play style as melee ST; but now would also have increased speed and HP.

I think this would make for a perfect 'maybe changes' event however:
- implement changes for 1-2 weeks
- observe live server
- remove changes
- gather feedback from observations, data and forum.

Yes, it's a hassle, no one wants to work on possible throwaway code. But RoR is a complex game. 8 primary stats, 24 classes, 72 specs, at least 10 max-level sets per class. To call it a balance act would be an understatement. Throwing a few 0.01 changes in there would be like throwing a few grains of sand inside a mechanical watch. Maybe it will be fine; maybe not.

---
Personally, I would advocate for fewer stats. Like others have said, TTK is already high enough in the game; and while this means that RvR is okish; it's not the only kind of gameplay. It's not unheard of to be part of small scale and even city fights that take up to 10 minutes before one side begins to lose (here's one 6v6 fight from a previous tournament; it lasted 16 minutes); and we're not talking 10 minutes of Age of Empires or Starcraft here, but 600 seconds in which you have to constantly be present, active and aware each second. It is draining, to put it politely.
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wargrimnir
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Re: Rebalancing Attributes: A chance for more diversity

Post#52 » Wed Feb 03, 2021 2:50 am

Sponn wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 12:02 am
wargrimnir wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 2:39 pm
Yes we can, and we do.

Not that we're going to in this case, but don't delude yourself into thinking this isn't a development server first. We will test broken things on the playerbase that can't be effectively tested otherwise.
Everything in this post still applies and is actually what you've signed up for by playing here. viewtopic.php?f=52&t=16391
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Kinda sorta conflicts with what is stated in the TOS. Just saying.

Might help to take out the "We will try out best to offer you a pleasant experience."
I see you're having some trouble comprehending two distinct messages. Let's add another one. I'm not patient or friendly with people who want to take shots at the work we've done. None of these statements are counter to each other.

This is a test server where we do what we feel is necessary to facilitate development.
We want people to be happy and welcome and listened to fairly.
We're not going to tolerate goons taking a piss at our feet while pointing to rules taken out of context.
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fabrizio3k
Posts: 55

Re: Rebalancing Attributes: A chance for more diversity

Post#53 » Wed Feb 03, 2021 11:36 am

wargrimnir wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 2:50 am
Sponn wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 12:02 am
wargrimnir wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 2:39 pm
Yes we can, and we do.

Not that we're going to in this case, but don't delude yourself into thinking this isn't a development server first. We will test broken things on the playerbase that can't be effectively tested otherwise.
Everything in this post still applies and is actually what you've signed up for by playing here. viewtopic.php?f=52&t=16391
Terms of Use/Service


To begin with: Be our guest. We are happy you are here. :)

- We will try our best to offer you a pleasant experience.
- We will consider any constructive and appropriately constructed feedback.
- We will maintain a neutral position when it comes to realm bias.
- We will provide a high level of communication when game services are impacted, intentional or otherwise.



Kinda sorta conflicts with what is stated in the TOS. Just saying.

Might help to take out the "We will try out best to offer you a pleasant experience."
I see you're having some trouble comprehending two distinct messages. Let's add another one. I'm not patient or friendly with people who want to take shots at the work we've done. None of these statements are counter to each other.

This is a test server where we do what we feel is necessary to facilitate development.
We want people to be happy and welcome and listened to fairly.
We're not going to tolerate goons taking a piss at our feet while pointing to rules taken out of context.

I don’t know why this escalated but personally I had no intention of taking shots at your or someone else’s work in maintaining this server. My “you can’t deploy these kind of changes live” was partially because I was not aware of the fact this was a test server to this extent and partially because it is a change that alters everything so much that it basically makes it another game. I amend for that.

That said, being polite should be the basis even in strong disagreement/misunderstanding

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Idrinth
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Re: Rebalancing Attributes: A chance for more diversity

Post#54 » Thu Feb 11, 2021 2:41 pm

Noslock wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 10:03 pm Yes pls 12k hp on my 2h bo with 800 tough are not enough
If I may ask, what do the other stats look like? May be a gear issue more than an issue with the suggestion.


For all those worried about the defensive gains you'd get, what about getting rid of the flat minus crit renown? Would bring chance to be crit back up to what tactics and abilities expect - would then just free up a lot of renown to spend on attributes.
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Noslock
Posts: 374

Re: Rebalancing Attributes: A chance for more diversity

Post#55 » Thu Feb 11, 2021 6:25 pm

Idrinth wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 2:41 pm
Noslock wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 10:03 pm Yes pls 12k hp on my 2h bo with 800 tough are not enough
If I may ask, what do the other stats look like? May be a gear issue more than an issue with the suggestion.


For all those worried about the defensive gains you'd get, what about getting rid of the flat minus crit renown? Would bring chance to be crit back up to what tactics and abilities expect - would then just free up a lot of renown to spend on attributes.
Something around 660 str 790 toughness with selfbuff and tactic 500+ws with selfbuff and 200+ ini and -19 crit reduction with 11k hp to be precise.Its just a solo build a little more defensive than the full yolo 2h i used in case of city wb.with boon proc i sit between 60 and 70% parry
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jughurta69
Posts: 113

Re: Rebalancing Attributes: A chance for more diversity

Post#56 » Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:20 pm

this will increase the balancing difficulties

The contribution of other liabilities will make the hybrid classes more powerful, resistant and will accentuate the imbalance already present on WE / WH / Sorc / BW

burst specs have repercussions, WE / WH need a positional or the others do the same damage without required

That the statistics allow more

Decrease the crit damage received, create a health per second, Morale per second etc ... would be too important and added more attack speed to the tank (s) and the 2h mdps already tear off health bars

It would be the end of light armor

Strakar
Posts: 144

Re: Rebalancing Attributes: A chance for more diversity

Post#57 » Fri Feb 12, 2021 2:05 am

I think testing some incremental offensively biased Stat changes may help the orvr stalemate that develops when pop reaches critical mass during peak times. Once defensive pop reaches a certain level, it seems impossible to break through no matter how much you throw at a zone. Then you just spend hours running boxes to 5*. If people died slightly faster in large fights it could help.

I agree with everyone who says there are so many factors to balance though, it's hard to assess downstream impact.

Oh and give the devs a break for proposing something new and letting us play a cool game for free. Surprised how vindictive some of the feedback is.

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