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WE/WH vs Challenge | Bellow

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ReactShoom
Posts: 2

WE/WH vs Challenge | Bellow

Post#1 » Wed Mar 03, 2021 3:07 pm

Due to the fact that both WE & WH doesn't have propper aoe ability to remove 3 stacks of challenge my only suggestion is simple in words.

Even in semi competitive environment of Cities these 2 classes unable to perform on equal terms with other mdps, because obvious reasons.
So the best bet is to focus on single target burst. But if you are being challenged by any tank you are losing a lot of your dmg output (burst, the main focus of these classes) => you can't kill target => no domino effect, etc.

Slight solution: Add 1 more check before applying Challenge/Bellow (tank m2) debuff.
If WE/WH is in stealth "Challenge/Bellow" debuff wouldn't be applied on them.
Spoiler:
!enemyPlayer.isStealthed ? enemyPlayer.isChallenged = true : enemyPlayer.isChallenged = false
!enemyPlayer.isStealthed ? enemyPlayer.isBellowed = true : enemyPlayer.isBellowed = false
Because it is common sense: "you can't challenge/bellow those who you don't see".

Ofc i could be wrong, but they do struggle.
Spoiler:
i don't play on these classes, so no bias

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Aurandilaz
Posts: 1896

Re: WE/WH vs Challenge | Bellow

Post#2 » Wed Mar 03, 2021 3:27 pm

Having played WE last 3 months in cities, I have thought of this at some points, having a Challenge in your buffhead for 60mins is somewhat of headache, especially since it stacks with Bellows and if there any is decent tank in enemy team, they will be permasnaring permadebuffing permachallenging me while I somehow try hunt healers whenever I'm not spending 5 sec floating in air due to kotb megapunt or waiting 6s at sidelines watching RP stagger decay over time.

So yeah, at least having a mechanic for Clearing challenge would be nice, but somehow I really doubt the devs want to aid WE/WHs in cities, since it risks them becoming better elsewhere as well.

My personal idea to counter the Challenge would have been to add an extra rule to the core finisher user, "using full 5 stack Finisher clears Challenge effects" but might be too much, or maybe after using Stealth opener you get the AP reduction self buff, during which you could gain immunity from "all outgoing" DMG reductions (yes, both Challenge and DB).
Third option being add extra effect to Feinted Positioning that does same as above "clears all outgoing dmg reduction debuffs", which is at 60s CD normally but I guess you could waste tactic to lower it down to 20s (might as well mirror said tactic to WH because why not).


Idk, it just feels so tiresome, you are supposed to be the "high risk high reward" low armor high crit (lol, WE BIS at 42mcrit vs Mara over +60) class choice, but as it is now, 1-2 good tanks in enemy team and you are going around scratching people.

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Ekundu01
Posts: 288

Re: WE/WH vs Challenge | Bellow

Post#3 » Wed Mar 03, 2021 4:19 pm

I would say just give the snare/root removal and immunity to do the same for challenge.
Trismack

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Grock
Posts: 794

Re: WE/WH vs Challenge | Bellow

Post#4 » Wed Mar 03, 2021 4:46 pm

Something like that would be good for 2h/st slayer as well since we don't have core 24target spammable like Mara/WL do

Having special condition to remove challenge on WH/WE finishers feels pretty weird, so is having it on snare/root removal.
Challenge immunity on stealth opener sounds kinda op-ish, as it removes potential counterplay so i dont like it

Immunity while stealthed sounds nice and appropriate, but stealth has fairly long cooldown so i'm not sure if benefit will be noticeable in cities

I think a potentially good way to do it could be to suppress(or remove) Challenge effect from targets you have Detaunted
That will provide an anti-challenge counterplay option to melee ST specs, while AoE ones wouldn't benefit much as their aoe dmg will likely remove Detaunt and make Challenge work again, what do you think
Orkni 85+ (in-game Grock is not me...)
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Sinisterror
Posts: 336

Re: WE/WH vs Challenge | Bellow

Post#5 » Wed Mar 03, 2021 4:49 pm

Grock wrote:
Wed Mar 03, 2021 4:46 pm
Something like that would be good for 2h/st slayer as well since we don't have core 24target spammable like Mara/WL do

Having special condition to remove challenge on WH/WE finishers feels pretty weird, so is having it on snare/root removal.
Challenge immunity on stealth opener sounds kinda op-ish, as it removes potential counterplay so i dont like it

Immunity while stealthed sounds nice and appropriate, but stealth has fairly long cooldown so i'm not sure if benefit will be noticeable in cities

I think a potentially good way to do it could be to suppress(or remove) Challenge effect from targets you have Detaunted
That will provide an anti-challenge counterplay option to melee ST specs, while AoE ones wouldn't benefit much as their aoe dmg will likely remove Detaunt and make Challenge work again, what do you think
You are slayer. Do you understand how easy it is for you not to even worry about challenge ? use rampage and use flurry 3 times, when you see that challenge is on you again repeat.
"To clarify, me asking to developers to go test their own changes is not sign of toxicity or anger, but a sign of hope that the people punching in the numbers remain aware of potential consequences and test their own changes"-Teefz

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Grock
Posts: 794

Re: WE/WH vs Challenge | Bellow

Post#6 » Wed Mar 03, 2021 4:56 pm

Sinisterror wrote:
Wed Mar 03, 2021 4:49 pm
You are slayer. Do you understand how easy it is for you not to even worry about challenge ? use rampage and use flurry 3 times, when you see that challenge is on you again repeat.
Flurry hits only 3 targets

Notice how i mentioned 2h/st slayer, not just any slayer
Orkni 85+ (in-game Grock is not me...)
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lyncher12
Posts: 540

Re: WE/WH vs Challenge | Bellow

Post#7 » Wed Mar 03, 2021 5:11 pm

more buffs to wh/we plz

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zumos2
Posts: 388

Re: WE/WH vs Challenge | Bellow

Post#8 » Wed Mar 03, 2021 6:48 pm

Or give them capable AoE, really shouldn't be that hard.
Zumos - Member of Red Guard

Current Guilds: The Unlikely Plan - Deep and Dry - Dark Omen

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