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WH/WE Execution/Frenzy Range

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shoelessHN
Posts: 169

Re: WH/WE Execution/Frenzy Range

Post#31 » Sun Mar 07, 2021 5:25 am

teiloh wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 7:49 pm
shoelessHN wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 8:00 am Don't those attacks use the torch not bullets?
It was an answer to the "WH = Range class?" question. I don't think BAL/BH should be ranged either, but neither should most of the WE melee abilities.
Right. So replace the torch with a flame thrower then make the WH executions 80ft. Why not.

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JUNDIE
Posts: 10

Re: WH/WE Execution/Frenzy Range

Post#32 » Sun Mar 07, 2021 9:59 am

shoelessHN wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 8:00 am
teiloh wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 12:51 am
Krima wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 8:14 pm It would be very OP because of Flowing accusations. spaming dots from 30ft + aoe armor debuff from 40ft. WH = range class? :roll: Could open on target from 30ft
Burn armor, BAL into BH.. from 30ft!!!! u fail to see that?
What do you think guns do if not fire bullets at range?
Don't those attacks use the torch not bullets?
Doesn't every WE attack use knives? How are knives at 30ft reasonable?

WH shouldn't be limited to 5ft when the WE has 30ft knife attacks. Play both classes, then rationalize why the WH has less range.

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Evilest
Posts: 168

Re: WH/WE Execution/Frenzy Range

Post#33 » Sun Mar 07, 2021 10:37 am

Atropik wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 10:10 am
teiloh wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 5:34 am
Atropik wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 8:50 pm Having no ICD on kisses doesnt feel to be a buff for WE either, cause without Kiss of Doom it has no sence. 102% of order players strongly believe that WE has greater burst simply because of Kisses procs and if devs remove the ICD, it will start making over 9000 procs per second and burn away the entire order realm, but this is simply not true. 25% chance is like 3-4 extra hits per combat - having no ICD on it wont enhance WEs burst in any common way.
Witchbrew is a solid finisher.
Wbwas way OP on t2. It was solid finisher on t3, when people had like 5-6k hp. but now with all the 80+ sov.geared people around running with 9-10k hp - WB with static 1200-2400 dmg over 12 (!) seconds does not have much sence.
Not that long ago I was in T3 with my baby WE, using WB, with rather good results. I could kill things including healers unless I opened low in AP, without cheesy opening knockbacks. In T4, at least up to vanq/conq+invader I had to respec because, like the proverbial goggles, was doing nothing at all.

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Ekundu01
Posts: 306

Re: WH/WE Execution/Frenzy Range

Post#34 » Mon Mar 08, 2021 2:10 pm

Parallell86 wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 7:54 am
Ekundu01 wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 5:44 pm With the a recent stealth opener changes WE got a pounce/snare opener giving them a gap closer they didn't have while also having 2 ways to increase run speed. On live all WE attacks were 5 foot range at the beginning and at some point they got equalized to be the same range as WH execution range because melee too hard?

WH has 2 executions that are 5 foot range yet both tool tips state they are shots yet the animation is the torch. Meanwhile all frenzies on WE hit 30 foot range but they are all stabs or most of the tool tips state they are. So are we to believe all WE have 28 foot daggers to hit from 30 feet away?

Both Burn away lies and Burn Heretic should be increased to 30 feet. And since WE now has 1 gap closer and 2 ways to increase run speed the frenzies should probably be reduced down to about a 15 foot range and not 30 feet.

Also one more added thing is WE can proc kiss procs from 65 feet with throwing dagger and witch brew procs. Snap shot should just be the bullet buff the WH has on plus the snare from behind. It is the only shot the WH has that won't proc the bullet buff.
Some abilities should not have 30ft range. Its very simple. BAL does a ton of damage by simply applying it. RA requires you to channel it to the end. And I dont see how the WH is in any way inferior to the WE, you got repel blasphemy which gives you 5 seconds 100% parry that also can be combined with a M1 ability that extend your 100% parry to 12 seconds. As a WE myself, I dont quite like our frenzies. You use SS for AA damage procc, not the damage itself. OYK damage is nothing particulary powerful either. You simply use it because its the only contribution you got in WB. And Puncture just like every other WE frenzy, the damage is split in two ticks, how often do both of them crit? No, when Absolution crit you get a big burst as a WE you better hold your thumbs that both damage ticks crit. It goes for SS and HRT aswell.
WE doesn't see a problem with the 30 foot finishers because they don't have to deal with the same stuff order has to deal with as a stealther. Destro has 2 classes that slip away with ease vs orders counter part that doesn't really have the same tools to be out of range most of the time. Shaman and SH are some of the main targets you need to take down as a WH and both have speed boosts as core skills so most have them and use them as well as the other abundance of CC they have to escape while also killing you in the process. If AM and SW had all the core skills that shaman and SH has for CC/speed boosts i bet WE would see the value in ranged finishers.
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losvtranse
Posts: 56

Re: WH/WE Execution/Frenzy Range

Post#35 » Wed Mar 10, 2021 8:50 am

Style-wise - i agree, having 30ft knives does not make any sense. However limiting them to melee range implies a total WE overhaul as without it she simply does not work, and just "raising numbers" won't do much in this case.

sighy
Posts: 259

Re: WH/WE Execution/Frenzy Range

Post#36 » Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:51 pm

JUNDIE wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 9:59 am
shoelessHN wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 8:00 am
teiloh wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 12:51 am

What do you think guns do if not fire bullets at range?
Don't those attacks use the torch not bullets?
Doesn't every WE attack use knives? How are knives at 30ft reasonable?

WH shouldn't be limited to 5ft when the WE has 30ft knife attacks. Play both classes, then rationalize why the WH has less range.
Look, if you wanna overthink it that hard Throwing Knives do exist.
Image

sighy
Posts: 259

Re: WH/WE Execution/Frenzy Range

Post#37 » Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:11 pm

Spoiler:
Ekundu01 wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 2:10 pm
Parallell86 wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 7:54 am
Ekundu01 wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 5:44 pm With the a recent stealth opener changes WE got a pounce/snare opener giving them a gap closer they didn't have while also having 2 ways to increase run speed. On live all WE attacks were 5 foot range at the beginning and at some point they got equalized to be the same range as WH execution range because melee too hard?

WH has 2 executions that are 5 foot range yet both tool tips state they are shots yet the animation is the torch. Meanwhile all frenzies on WE hit 30 foot range but they are all stabs or most of the tool tips state they are. So are we to believe all WE have 28 foot daggers to hit from 30 feet away?

Both Burn away lies and Burn Heretic should be increased to 30 feet. And since WE now has 1 gap closer and 2 ways to increase run speed the frenzies should probably be reduced down to about a 15 foot range and not 30 feet.

Also one more added thing is WE can proc kiss procs from 65 feet with throwing dagger and witch brew procs. Snap shot should just be the bullet buff the WH has on plus the snare from behind. It is the only shot the WH has that won't proc the bullet buff.
Some abilities should not have 30ft range. Its very simple. BAL does a ton of damage by simply applying it. RA requires you to channel it to the end. And I dont see how the WH is in any way inferior to the WE, you got repel blasphemy which gives you 5 seconds 100% parry that also can be combined with a M1 ability that extend your 100% parry to 12 seconds. As a WE myself, I dont quite like our frenzies. You use SS for AA damage procc, not the damage itself. OYK damage is nothing particulary powerful either. You simply use it because its the only contribution you got in WB. And Puncture just like every other WE frenzy, the damage is split in two ticks, how often do both of them crit? No, when Absolution crit you get a big burst as a WE you better hold your thumbs that both damage ticks crit. It goes for SS and HRT aswell.
WE doesn't see a problem with the 30 foot finishers because they don't have to deal with the same stuff order has to deal with as a stealther. Destro has 2 classes that slip away with ease vs orders counter part that doesn't really have the same tools to be out of range most of the time. Shaman and SH are some of the main targets you need to take down as a WH and both have speed boosts as core skills so most have them and use them as well as the other abundance of CC they have to escape while also killing you in the process. If AM and SW had all the core skills that shaman and SH has for CC/speed boosts i bet WE would see the value in ranged finishers.
WE don't see it as a big deal, because they have to be melee anyway. Witchbrew requires you to build up, at minimum 6 frenzies and Sac Stab buffs auto attacks to do the bulk of that build's damage. Making extra range on frenzies outside OYK pretty much arbitrary quality of life, for extraordinarily nishe situations, where you get punted away from someone that is at cca 5-10%hp, out of potions and without a healer. Even then you would only ever go for OyK, if your team desperately needs morale pump/drain.

Meanwhile BaL once applied does it's full damage regardless of where you get punted off to.

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Rumpel
Posts: 359

Re: WH/WE Execution/Frenzy Range

Post#38 » Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:10 pm

Ekundu01 wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 2:10 pm
Parallell86 wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 7:54 am
Ekundu01 wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 5:44 pm With the a recent stealth opener changes WE got a pounce/snare opener giving them a gap closer they didn't have while also having 2 ways to increase run speed. On live all WE attacks were 5 foot range at the beginning and at some point they got equalized to be the same range as WH execution range because melee too hard?

WH has 2 executions that are 5 foot range yet both tool tips state they are shots yet the animation is the torch. Meanwhile all frenzies on WE hit 30 foot range but they are all stabs or most of the tool tips state they are. So are we to believe all WE have 28 foot daggers to hit from 30 feet away?

Both Burn away lies and Burn Heretic should be increased to 30 feet. And since WE now has 1 gap closer and 2 ways to increase run speed the frenzies should probably be reduced down to about a 15 foot range and not 30 feet.

Also one more added thing is WE can proc kiss procs from 65 feet with throwing dagger and witch brew procs. Snap shot should just be the bullet buff the WH has on plus the snare from behind. It is the only shot the WH has that won't proc the bullet buff.
Some abilities should not have 30ft range. Its very simple. BAL does a ton of damage by simply applying it. RA requires you to channel it to the end. And I dont see how the WH is in any way inferior to the WE, you got repel blasphemy which gives you 5 seconds 100% parry that also can be combined with a M1 ability that extend your 100% parry to 12 seconds. As a WE myself, I dont quite like our frenzies. You use SS for AA damage procc, not the damage itself. OYK damage is nothing particulary powerful either. You simply use it because its the only contribution you got in WB. And Puncture just like every other WE frenzy, the damage is split in two ticks, how often do both of them crit? No, when Absolution crit you get a big burst as a WE you better hold your thumbs that both damage ticks crit. It goes for SS and HRT aswell.
WE doesn't see a problem with the 30 foot finishers because they don't have to deal with the same stuff order has to deal with as a stealther. Destro has 2 classes that slip away with ease vs orders counter part that doesn't really have the same tools to be out of range most of the time. Shaman and SH are some of the main targets you need to take down as a WH and both have speed boosts as core skills so most have them and use them as well as the other abundance of CC they have to escape while also killing you in the process. If AM and SW had all the core skills that shaman and SH has for CC/speed boosts i bet WE would see the value in ranged finishers.
I need my 30 feet RA for 12 sec 100% parry witchhunter while running away....but they dont see a problem with RB because they dont have to deal with the same stuff on destro side.

Witchhunter better had to ask for an pounce then an armor debuff, when kiting is the problem. Beside destro stealther at least also have to deal with superkiting archmages...before poumce.

You can't have all.
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Greetings from Chaos...
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Parallell86
Posts: 241

Re: WH/WE Execution/Frenzy Range

Post#39 » Fri Mar 19, 2021 11:32 am

WEs have pounce. But to use it to close the gap, you have to put your escape ability on CD. And then you get punted or knocked down.
WHs have armor debuff which they want to have 30 feet range. They want BAL which deals damage while you deal damage with other abilities to have 30 feet range also.

Play as a WE. Its not paradise. We are inferior to every m.dps on order already despite this fantastic pounce and 30 feet range on frenzies. WL knock you down, you dont get up.
Slayers get knocked down, stand up and shred you.

But you know what? We can kill bright wizards with ease. Thats always something as BWs are becoming yesterdays news. Its all AMs and melee now which WE struggle against ALOT.

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inoeth
Suspended
Posts: 513

Re: WH/WE Execution/Frenzy Range

Post#40 » Fri Mar 19, 2021 2:23 pm

Parallell86 wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 11:32 am WEs have pounce. But to use it to close the gap, you have to put your escape ability on CD. And then you get punted or knocked down.
WHs have armor debuff which they want to have 30 feet range. They want BAL which deals damage while you deal damage with other abilities to have 30 feet range also.

Play as a WE. Its not paradise. We are inferior to every m.dps on order already despite this fantastic pounce and 30 feet range on frenzies. WL knock you down, you dont get up.
Slayers get knocked down, stand up and shred you.

But you know what? We can kill bright wizards with ease. Thats always something as BWs are becoming yesterdays news. Its all AMs and melee now which WE struggle against ALOT.

yes WE is so weak, they can even go full toughness hp/4s and still rip LOL

tbh idc about this stupid amore debuff since you want to torment enemies anyway... but soooo often you are missing like 1 foot range because of lag or run away so you cant ****. more range on executions would be really nice indeed!
or
undefendable RB, i mean most of the time its useless because it gets defended somehow

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