Recent Topics

Ads

WH feedback and suggestions

We want to hear your thoughts and ideas.
Forum rules
Before posting on this forum, be sure to read the Terms of Use

Structured class balance suggestions belong in the Balance Proposal subforum. Class-related discussion in this section are considered as ongoing debates and ARE NOT reviewed for balance changes.
User avatar
mynban
Posts: 204

WH feedback and suggestions

Post#1 » Sat Mar 27, 2021 3:04 am

This is going to be a long one, since I have playing for a while and haven't given any feedback until I tested enough playstyles.

First of all, please do not take this thread as 'WE vs WH'. I am most definitely not looking for pulling down WE in any way, if anything their pounce needs a huge rework. It either needs to slow down its target or give a speed buff to WE; right now they pounce and by the time they land, their target already opened up more distance. Also it would make day & night difference if it could be done from neutral.

Back to topic with WH. I read most WH topics keeping an open mind towards both people complaining and defending state of WH (and WE). There are things I agree on both sides of argument. There are many people complaining that WH is not fulfilling the function assassins do in other games. And this is a very faulty logic, RoR is a different game and trying to assign your expectations of how a class *should* function is pointless.

But there is also a very clear issue with WH: "what IS its function?"
No matter what direction you specialize, you fill that niche worse than other classes can. Some of these problems has to do with WH kit, but some others are problems driven by Order population behavior.
  • Lack of Order melee on frontlines: There is an inevitable self-fulfilling Order prophecy of rDPS being more enjoyable. The more rDPS order has, the smaller their meleeball becomes making surviving in the frontlines as mDPS much much harder; which in return prompts more order players to rDPS. I know this is player driven issue, but sadly it is one that has a direct impact on viability of WH. I have less enemy focus from enemy as WE, since I am part of a larger meleeball; whereas as WH I usually get focused down in a matter of seconds since I am one of the few players on the frontline once I open. It also means I have less mDPS around me to assist to secure a kill. This is not something I am asking for a solution, just stating the reality of being a light armored mDPS in a smaller frontline.

    Low Guard Priority: WH rarely gets a guard on them and in all honesty when I play on IB, I also prefer to guard a slayer or WL over WH. I am not blaming Order tanks since AoE mDPS is more valuable to keep alive, but this fact creates a reality where WH are responsible for their own survival. Combined with smaller meleeball to run with, it forces WH to invest into defensive stats and mechanics heavily to survive more than a few seconds. That it where WH vs WE also starts to get a bigger difference, which is my next point:

    WE Kiss vs WH bullet Self-heal: Healers are such a powerhouse in the game that if you want to kill anyone you need (multiple) heal debuffs to be able to deal more damage than that gets healed back. WE self sustain kiss is -50% heal debuff kiss, where they can sustain themselves as well as put heal debuff on their target. Whereas WH self sustain bullet is INI drain, and if WH goes for -50% heal debuff they lose their self sustain. My Suggestion is to make 'self heal tactic' via Kiss/Bullet to apply to all kisses/bullets for both characters. Even if that comes at the cost of taking away encouraged confessions, I am sure most WH would still prefer that trade off, especially given how 1st and 2nd points about Order meleeball and guard priority issue makes WH responsible for their own survival.

    Bullet proc system vs Kiss proc system // Burst vs sustained DPS: This is NOT a complain about kiss procs. It is simply an analysis of proc rates and what that means for optimum DPS/burst for WH. I will start with easy math with WE Kiss: it procs on any attack, meaning your skill cycle will have same added sustained DPS regardless of whether you build bloodlust or go into frenzy early. In the case of WH; your added sustained DPS will be lower if you build accusation instead of going for executions right away. That takes away choice from WH in terms of optimum cycles, and that is the reason why BaL is so heavily relied by WH since it is the only execution worth building accusations for (and yes I have tested Trial by Pain and its optimum point is 2 accusations; beyond that sustained DPS get lower). Since burst is the most effective way of securing a kill, WH needs to sacrifice some sustained DPS before they can burst with 5 accusation executions. Combined with WH self sustain coming from their bullet proc, this makes building accusations come at a serious cost to WH, unlike WE. I am NOT asking for Kiss mechanic to be nerfed in anyway, or bullet to be changed to proc like Kiss. My Suggestion is to make Bullet Proc Damage scale by accusations. In terms of numbers what i would suggest is New Bullet Proc to deal current bullet proc damage/2 per accusation. That way at 2 accusations it would deal the damage it does at the moment, and building more accusation wouldn't lower WH sustained DPS anymore.

    Lack of Gap closers and getting Kited forever: 30ft executions means very little when you can only build accusations in 5ft range. This problem applies to both WH and WE. All classes has something to push you away/jump away/root/KD you. Once pushed away, your only two options are (if you specced into them) using elixir of shadows/Sanctified Oil for 2sec speed buff at the cost of losing your other relics/elixirs for the next 60 seconds, or simply getting kited forever while you chase them with Snap Shot/Throwing Dagger. My suggestion is making Snap Shot and Throwing dagger to build an accusation/bloodlust. It is already a 1.0sec cast skill that get interrupted if you are chasing over a jump requiring terrain or interruption in LoS. Even if this comes at the cost of making it 1.5sec I think it would still make a huge difference in being kited forever.

    Lack of meaningful function in group:
    As mentioned any direction I specialize towards I feel I am still outclasses by other classes (even before they specialize in anything) in that niche. I tried defensive DG morale drain/pump setup with def gear, and I provide much less to my team than an average Kotbs while still being waaaay more squishier than least defensive kotbs. I tried single target dps build to get a jump on rDPS/casters and found WL is much better at securing that kill while not dying as fast as I do. Only utility I found that can not be outclassed by others is sniping the interactable BO in cemetary/Khaine SCs via stealth. And I think any WE/WH would give that away in a heartbeat for a proper meaningful niche that is unique to them. My Suggestion is give them a tactic where their crits (or executions/frenzies) prevent target from receiving healing for 2 sec. That would make them desirable in groups with a niche function unique to them.
I know this was a long one, and if you read it all thank you. I hope this reaches devs somehow.

Ads
jughurta69
Posts: 113

Re: WH feedback and suggestions

Post#2 » Sat Mar 27, 2021 3:29 am

for me, they're pretty good right now. Lots of interesting different specs.

WH / WE are not classic MDPs and thinking of them this way leads a lot of people to play these classes without understanding them.

indeed some adjustments can be considered but not of this importance

no guard is not the class the problem but your mates who do not understand your role (explain to them)
Front line it's not your place play WL / Slayer / choppa / mara etc ...
Grap closer, no we have incognito that allows us to flank
prevent target from receiving healing for 2 sec no just no, too much OP and total nonsense because you can have a double debuff in spec

WE/WH lack crit chance (+5% base) and Improved movement speed when using incognito / shadow prowler for easier positioning (10%)



.
PS up WH / WE currently would not be good because too many groups gank for kill solo and duo. Toxic gameplay and increased potency would be counterproductive

abezverkhiy
Posts: 551

Re: WH feedback and suggestions

Post#3 » Sat Mar 27, 2021 6:53 am

What's your WH name? I will add you to my friend list - I have like 15 WHs there and whenever I am online (weekends mostly) I make a WH only party. Yesterday, for instance, 6 of us had fun in Avelorn, High Pass and Shadowlands. Join us and you will forget about any need for improvement!

P.S. No req for lvl and gear, every WH is welcome. Just drop me a message here or in game.
KingSchultz WH, Valknutt WP, Glendhu ENG, Lochdhu IB, Tamdhu SL

My WH guide: viewtopic.php?t=46354

User avatar
Hulgore
Suspended
Posts: 45

Re: WH feedback and suggestions

Post#4 » Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:42 am

I like your suggestions, the snap shot one is great, the idea of preventing heals on a target is also interesting since healers in this game can insta-save their target (or themselves) which is very frustrating sometimes, but the way it would apply as you describe would make it kinda op I guess as it would apply way too often

User avatar
Hulgore
Suspended
Posts: 45

Re: WH feedback and suggestions

Post#5 » Sun Mar 28, 2021 11:09 am

jughurta69 wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 3:29 am for me, they're pretty good right now. Lots of interesting different specs.

WH / WE are not classic MDPs and thinking of them this way leads a lot of people to play these classes without understanding them.

indeed some adjustments can be considered but not of this importance

no guard is not the class the problem but your mates who do not understand your role (explain to them)
Front line it's not your place play WL / Slayer / choppa / mara etc ...
Grap closer, no we have incognito that allows us to flank
prevent target from receiving healing for 2 sec no just no, too much OP and total nonsense because you can have a double debuff in spec

WE/WH lack crit chance (+5% base) and Improved movement speed when using incognito / shadow prowler for easier positioning (10%)



.
PS up WH / WE currently would not be good because too many groups gank for kill solo and duo. Toxic gameplay and increased potency would be counterproductive
I can understand your point of view, yet that wouldn't solve the lack of fighting ability of the class, it's not just about being invisible but when you engage you do not bring much into the fight and you're not even that great at 1v1 against other classes that also have good warband utility (for example, marauders can just rekt you, same for Choppas and 2 handers Black Orcs, and yet they're still good for playing in group. Where is the balance in that ? And like the author of this post said, WL are better than WH at assassinating backlines)

Being invisible does not help much if as soon as you get out of stealth you get 3-shot without killing anyone

User avatar
inoeth
Suspended
Posts: 513

Re: WH feedback and suggestions

Post#6 » Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:41 am

even stealth does not help you very much since high end geared ppl just see you from miles away.

@OP: very good points, agree with all. i really like the snap shot thing and the scaling of bullets!

arorwne
Suspended
Posts: 235

Re: WH feedback and suggestions

Post#7 » Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:14 pm

mynban wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 3:04 am This is going to be a long one, since I have playing for a while and haven't given any feedback until I tested enough playstyles.

First of all, please do not take this thread as 'WE vs WH'. I am most definitely not looking for pulling down WE in any way, if anything their pounce needs a huge rework. It either needs to slow down its target or give a speed buff to WE; right now they pounce and by the time they land, their target already opened up more distance. Also it would make day & night difference if it could be done from neutral.

Back to topic with WH. I read most WH topics keeping an open mind towards both people complaining and defending state of WH (and WE). There are things I agree on both sides of argument. There are many people complaining that WH is not fulfilling the function assassins do in other games. And this is a very faulty logic, RoR is a different game and trying to assign your expectations of how a class *should* function is pointless.

But there is also a very clear issue with WH: "what IS its function?"
No matter what direction you specialize, you fill that niche worse than other classes can. Some of these problems has to do with WH kit, but some others are problems driven by Order population behavior.
  • Lack of Order melee on frontlines: There is an inevitable self-fulfilling Order prophecy of rDPS being more enjoyable. The more rDPS order has, the smaller their meleeball becomes making surviving in the frontlines as mDPS much much harder; which in return prompts more order players to rDPS. I know this is player driven issue, but sadly it is one that has a direct impact on viability of WH. I have less enemy focus from enemy as WE, since I am part of a larger meleeball; whereas as WH I usually get focused down in a matter of seconds since I am one of the few players on the frontline once I open. It also means I have less mDPS around me to assist to secure a kill. This is not something I am asking for a solution, just stating the reality of being a light armored mDPS in a smaller frontline.

    Low Guard Priority: WH rarely gets a guard on them and in all honesty when I play on IB, I also prefer to guard a slayer or WL over WH. I am not blaming Order tanks since AoE mDPS is more valuable to keep alive, but this fact creates a reality where WH are responsible for their own survival. Combined with smaller meleeball to run with, it forces WH to invest into defensive stats and mechanics heavily to survive more than a few seconds. That it where WH vs WE also starts to get a bigger difference, which is my next point:

    WE Kiss vs WH bullet Self-heal: Healers are such a powerhouse in the game that if you want to kill anyone you need (multiple) heal debuffs to be able to deal more damage than that gets healed back. WE self sustain kiss is -50% heal debuff kiss, where they can sustain themselves as well as put heal debuff on their target. Whereas WH self sustain bullet is INI drain, and if WH goes for -50% heal debuff they lose their self sustain. My Suggestion is to make 'self heal tactic' via Kiss/Bullet to apply to all kisses/bullets for both characters. Even if that comes at the cost of taking away encouraged confessions, I am sure most WH would still prefer that trade off, especially given how 1st and 2nd points about Order meleeball and guard priority issue makes WH responsible for their own survival.

    Bullet proc system vs Kiss proc system // Burst vs sustained DPS: This is NOT a complain about kiss procs. It is simply an analysis of proc rates and what that means for optimum DPS/burst for WH. I will start with easy math with WE Kiss: it procs on any attack, meaning your skill cycle will have same added sustained DPS regardless of whether you build bloodlust or go into frenzy early. In the case of WH; your added sustained DPS will be lower if you build accusation instead of going for executions right away. That takes away choice from WH in terms of optimum cycles, and that is the reason why BaL is so heavily relied by WH since it is the only execution worth building accusations for (and yes I have tested Trial by Pain and its optimum point is 2 accusations; beyond that sustained DPS get lower). Since burst is the most effective way of securing a kill, WH needs to sacrifice some sustained DPS before they can burst with 5 accusation executions. Combined with WH self sustain coming from their bullet proc, this makes building accusations come at a serious cost to WH, unlike WE. I am NOT asking for Kiss mechanic to be nerfed in anyway, or bullet to be changed to proc like Kiss. My Suggestion is to make Bullet Proc Damage scale by accusations. In terms of numbers what i would suggest is New Bullet Proc to deal current bullet proc damage/2 per accusation. That way at 2 accusations it would deal the damage it does at the moment, and building more accusation wouldn't lower WH sustained DPS anymore.

    Lack of Gap closers and getting Kited forever: 30ft executions means very little when you can only build accusations in 5ft range. This problem applies to both WH and WE. All classes has something to push you away/jump away/root/KD you. Once pushed away, your only two options are (if you specced into them) using elixir of shadows/Sanctified Oil for 2sec speed buff at the cost of losing your other relics/elixirs for the next 60 seconds, or simply getting kited forever while you chase them with Snap Shot/Throwing Dagger. My suggestion is making Snap Shot and Throwing dagger to build an accusation/bloodlust. It is already a 1.0sec cast skill that get interrupted if you are chasing over a jump requiring terrain or interruption in LoS. Even if this comes at the cost of making it 1.5sec I think it would still make a huge difference in being kited forever.

    Lack of meaningful function in group:
    As mentioned any direction I specialize towards I feel I am still outclasses by other classes (even before they specialize in anything) in that niche. I tried defensive DG morale drain/pump setup with def gear, and I provide much less to my team than an average Kotbs while still being waaaay more squishier than least defensive kotbs. I tried single target dps build to get a jump on rDPS/casters and found WL is much better at securing that kill while not dying as fast as I do. Only utility I found that can not be outclassed by others is sniping the interactable BO in cemetary/Khaine SCs via stealth. And I think any WE/WH would give that away in a heartbeat for a proper meaningful niche that is unique to them. My Suggestion is give them a tactic where their crits (or executions/frenzies) prevent target from receiving healing for 2 sec. That would make them desirable in groups with a niche function unique to them.
I know this was a long one, and if you read it all thank you. I hope this reaches devs somehow.
One by one:

Bullets / Kisses: These heals just need to be made baseline. Because if you give every Bullet / Kissa heal, you're making that Tactic entirely too powerful. At that point, just cut out the middleman and go for the baseline. This would help solo "anything" immensely.

Snap Shot: A powerful change that I'm uncertain about, but I wouldn't mind it. Estalian Pistollero(would fit my character very well)! :)

Abolish Heal: No, too powerful. One possibility how to implement this would be via niche abilities(Seeker's Blade or what have you). But, then again, you have MINIMAL BURST WINDOW, so using a niche ability even to abolish healing, would lead nowhere.

Bullet Scaling: Yes, this is needed. It isn't really needed for Kisses(it's sustained, if it's too low, it can always be buffed to 40%+), but for Bullets it is very much. Because you don't really need more than 3 Accusations. With that said, I'd put the 1x value at 3 Accs not at 2(wouldn't say no to 2 though ;) ).

Overall: You're like a Witcher, prepare yourself for whatever you're trying to do. If you do, you can be quite powerful even now. With that said, your proposed changes are awesome and I'm fully for them(except the abolish heal one).

Edit: TtK WL is nothing short of awesome. If an enterprising person were to make a 6man, they would really show that pesky backline the meaning of "roadkill".
Last edited by arorwne on Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Whyumadbro
Posts: 485

Re: WH feedback and suggestions

Post#8 » Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:20 pm

I rlly like the no heal for a time function, that would make me play may wh way more. i main slayer so i understand the point of getting no guard and kinda feeling like a leecher in a wb.

Ads
emiliorv
Suspended
Posts: 1295

Re: WH feedback and suggestions

Post#9 » Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:34 pm

incoming+outgoing healdebuff is not enough...lul...100% incoming debuff...wow => i wonder what would happen if more than 1 WH is assiting on 1 target chaining that ridiculous OP debuff

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 24 guests