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wargrimnir
Head Game Master
Posts: 7368
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Re: Focused Offense

Post#11 » Mon May 03, 2021 12:52 pm

arorwne wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 12:47 pm
CytheX wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 11:41 am
How about u do more dmg but ur guard absorb less dmg?
E pur si muove! That's it!

This could solve so many issues without gimping too much and even giving "loldps" tanks what they want(like they guard to begin with). I would personally use this for solo, while I'd, naturally, Guard etc in groups. It is my job after all.

What a beautiful idea, how'd you come up with it? Devs, what do you think?
Tanks but no tanks.
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grimnir.me Some old WAR blog

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arorwne
Posts: 185

Re: Focused Offense

Post#12 » Mon May 03, 2021 4:48 pm

wargrimnir wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 12:52 pm
arorwne wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 12:47 pm
CytheX wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 11:41 am
How about u do more dmg but ur guard absorb less dmg?
E pur si muove! That's it!

This could solve so many issues without gimping too much and even giving "loldps" tanks what they want(like they guard to begin with). I would personally use this for solo, while I'd, naturally, Guard etc in groups. It is my job after all.

What a beautiful idea, how'd you come up with it? Devs, what do you think?
Tanks but no tanks.
Give me why instead of memes. If you can't, fetch another dev. And I will not take "fear of Tzeentch(change)" as a valid reason. If not, why is having a dead Tactic a good idea, this is not MTG so you have bad cards. Even then, I'm against it, but I at least understand why.

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wargrimnir
Head Game Master
Posts: 7368
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Re: Focused Offense

Post#13 » Mon May 03, 2021 5:08 pm

arorwne wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 4:48 pm
wargrimnir wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 12:52 pm
arorwne wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 12:47 pm


E pur si muove! That's it!

This could solve so many issues without gimping too much and even giving "loldps" tanks what they want(like they guard to begin with). I would personally use this for solo, while I'd, naturally, Guard etc in groups. It is my job after all.

What a beautiful idea, how'd you come up with it? Devs, what do you think?
Tanks but no tanks.
Give me why instead of memes. If you can't, fetch another dev. And I will not take "fear of Tzeentch(change)" as a valid reason. If not, why is having a dead Tactic a good idea, this is not MTG so you have bad cards. Even then, I'm against it, but I at least understand why.
No one owes you any explanation every time you dig up another well beaten corpse of bad ideas from yesteryear. The tactic is just bad enough that people don't use it, which is where it should be. Tanks have inherent mitigation that with enough push would make them more desirable than actual melee classes. There needs to be room for both, and that means tanks don't get to play main DPS while keeping all their survivability. The thin veneer that people pretend to hide behind is they simply want a tank class that deals as much damage as a melee class so they can feel safe. Any class identity or battlefield role bedamned in the process of pushing for that agenda. Tanks, but no tanks.
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[email protected] for exploits and cheaters.
grimnir.me Some old WAR blog

CytheX
Posts: 101

Re: Focused Offense

Post#14 » Mon May 03, 2021 5:15 pm

wargrimnir wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 5:08 pm
arorwne wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 4:48 pm
wargrimnir wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 12:52 pm


Tanks but no tanks.
Give me why instead of memes. If you can't, fetch another dev. And I will not take "fear of Tzeentch(change)" as a valid reason. If not, why is having a dead Tactic a good idea, this is not MTG so you have bad cards. Even then, I'm against it, but I at least understand why.
No one owes you any explanation every time you dig up another well beaten corpse of bad ideas from yesteryear. The tactic is just bad enough that people don't use it, which is where it should be. Tanks have inherent mitigation that with enough push would make them more desirable than actual melee classes. There needs to be room for both, and that means tanks don't get to play main DPS while keeping all their survivability. The thin veneer that people pretend to hide behind is they simply want a tank class that deals as much damage as a melee class so they can feel safe. Any class identity or battlefield role bedamned in the process of pushing for that agenda. Tanks, but no tanks.
Not sure if u are playn ur own game, but tanks that goes for full dps are like squiscier than real dps who have access to detaunts and skill that prevent dmg. Anyway urs the game, you decide.

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wargrimnir
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Re: Focused Offense

Post#15 » Mon May 03, 2021 5:23 pm

CytheX wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 5:15 pm
wargrimnir wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 5:08 pm
arorwne wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 4:48 pm


Give me why instead of memes. If you can't, fetch another dev. And I will not take "fear of Tzeentch(change)" as a valid reason. If not, why is having a dead Tactic a good idea, this is not MTG so you have bad cards. Even then, I'm against it, but I at least understand why.
No one owes you any explanation every time you dig up another well beaten corpse of bad ideas from yesteryear. The tactic is just bad enough that people don't use it, which is where it should be. Tanks have inherent mitigation that with enough push would make them more desirable than actual melee classes. There needs to be room for both, and that means tanks don't get to play main DPS while keeping all their survivability. The thin veneer that people pretend to hide behind is they simply want a tank class that deals as much damage as a melee class so they can feel safe. Any class identity or battlefield role bedamned in the process of pushing for that agenda. Tanks, but no tanks.
Not sure if u are playn ur own game, but tanks that goes for full dps are like squiscier than real dps who have access to detaunts and skill that prevent dmg. Anyway urs the game, you decide.
Tanks DO still have access to skills that reduce damage when they go full DPS already. They're different skills than what true melee classes have, but work to the same ends. Any class can gimp itself going full glass cannon, that's not unique to tanks at all. The finesse is finding a balance with your build so you aren't functionally useless. The challenge with tanks going full DPS is if they find a good enough balance they are more desirable than actual melee classes that need to be supported by proper defensive Tank classes. Without defensive skills like Guard, there is a core aspect of the game that holds together balanced groups. Not that balanced groups are a particular concern for some people, you don't have to care about group composition if you just play solo to begin with.
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[email protected] for exploits and cheaters.
grimnir.me Some old WAR blog

arorwne
Posts: 185

Re: Focused Offense

Post#16 » Mon May 03, 2021 5:29 pm

wargrimnir wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 5:08 pm
arorwne wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 4:48 pm
wargrimnir wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 12:52 pm


Tanks but no tanks.
Give me why instead of memes. If you can't, fetch another dev. And I will not take "fear of Tzeentch(change)" as a valid reason. If not, why is having a dead Tactic a good idea, this is not MTG so you have bad cards. Even then, I'm against it, but I at least understand why.
No one owes you any explanation every time you dig up another well beaten corpse of bad ideas from yesteryear. The tactic is just bad enough that people don't use it, which is where it should be. Tanks have inherent mitigation that with enough push would make them more desirable than actual melee classes. There needs to be room for both, and that means tanks don't get to play main DPS while keeping all their survivability. The thin veneer that people pretend to hide behind is they simply want a tank class that deals as much damage as a melee class so they can feel safe. Any class identity or battlefield role bedamned in the process of pushing for that agenda. Tanks, but no tanks.
It is NOT where it should be, but if that's your (unreasonable) will, so be it. Nothing should be useless and as CytheX said, they actually become squishier than real mDPS with next to no upsides if they go FO. Example, WH. They can Detaunt, they Declare Anathema, they can heal with S.Bullets and they can Confess! + Repel Blasphemy / M1 + Shroud. A Tank that decides to use FO transforms into a Tanky DPS(from a real Tank), but actually ends up squishier than most things in melee.

I get that you want to push the "purity of roles" and that is commendable, but after a certain point, it becomes a fool's chase. And if you're worried about "omg t3h loldps", guess what. They are loldps tanks, they would remain such and most of them would rather quit the game than change their mentality. You can't squeeze water out of obsidian, don't be silly. It's not a limestone, another approach is required.

Regardless, your wish, your game.

doky
Posts: 85

Re: Focused Offense

Post#17 » Mon May 03, 2021 6:59 pm

those tactics meant for PVE huh... why hate em?

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space44
Posts: 284

Re: Focused Offense

Post#18 » Mon May 03, 2021 7:15 pm

focused offense for tank is for small scale combat. Its for tanks who wants to sacrifice survival for extra damage. being BiS is just the byproduct of playing the game, complaining about BiS being good is a futile argument since that's the point its supposed to be good.
Chosen: Roten Plaguelord rr85 | Knight of the Blazing Sun: Lyntyz Jesterknight rr63 | Warrior Priest: Ulfrric Greywolf rr51

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arorwne
Posts: 185

Re: Focused Offense

Post#19 » Mon May 03, 2021 8:07 pm

doky wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 6:59 pm
those tactics meant for PVE huh... why hate em?
Who, Grimnir? Besides, it sucks even in PvE. You literally take at least 60% more damage(165 / 86 = 92%)! That's ridiculous, even if you are a Swordmaster(the only that can actually get away with it ; NOT recommended at all on IB ; Knight can work)!
space44 wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 7:15 pm
focused offense for tank is for small scale combat. Its for tanks who wants to sacrifice survival for extra damage. being BiS is just the byproduct of playing the game, complaining about BiS being good is a futile argument since that's the point its supposed to be good.
Yes, I'm obviously aware of that, but you misunderstood my BiS commentary. I'm not lamenting being BiS, but NEEDING to be BiS in order to use the current form of FO. If I had any power, I'd change it immediately, it is counterproductive, it doesn't stop the loldps, it does jack ****. And our keen devs are obviously fine with that.

Again, I know, role purity, discrete categories, all that **** is fine. And I am rather discrete in that way too(I really like discrete categories). But when Divine Fury is ok working like it does(exactly zero punishment if you adapt ; hell, you even get some 5% reward!), but Focused Offense is also ok NOT WORKING AT ALL(even if you adapt, you get some 10% of punishment - if you live!). Can't you spot the logical inconsistency? These two Tactics are the exact same material: solo / small scale tools. One works flawlessly, other works horribly. Why is that ok?

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zulnam
Posts: 500

Re: Focused Offense

Post#20 » Mon May 03, 2021 8:32 pm

I like both recommended options. Although i doubt the 2nd would be favoured among the devs, but the 33% armor decrease is too high for a playstyle that thrives on outlasting your opponent.

While i still probably wouldn't pick it on my IB thanks to many good tactics, i'd definitely give it a good go on the kotbs, who arguably has very little in terms of damage increase tactics

See if you can finetune it from other comments then make sure to post it on the "Balance Suggestions" subthread (it's the one the devs read more often since it's single posts, no pages on pages of commenting).
SW, Kotbs, IB, Slayer, Mara, SH

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