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Some Black Guard suggestions for BG Tank

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Auzor
Posts: 46

Re: Some Black Guard suggestions for BG Tank

Post#11 » Tue May 18, 2021 11:37 am

nocturnalguest wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 8:31 am Man, get out of t1 before you gonna drop another wall of text
Theorycrafting could be entertaining, but this not the case.
In current game state SnB BG is non-disputable best turtle tank, altho in general scheme of things it matters not cause game mechanic has almost no space for such playstyle (e.g. PuG SC flag holding, cause any kind of organized group will still kill you no matter what).
All of your proposals are clearly showing you have no real game knowledge and just compare abilities in builder. Thats not how you do balance proposals.
Fair enough.

But when doing any proposal, you do have to compare abilities, tactics etc, with other classes.
And I do have tank experience in other MMO's.

As to SnB BG being the non-disputable best turtle tank: honestly, I doubt it. Or, define what you mean with 'turtle tank'.
Is it staying alive yourself, or keeping others alive? In case of BG, the 'others' is mostly 1 other person. Is it buffing other people in a turtle close formation?
Hold the Line: all tanks get it.
1 good knockback.
vs Black Orcs 'can't hit me': no cooldown for the BO.
IB: can maintain a +25% parry to oathfriend & self, has a better +block tactic, and a snare/root removal ability. Plus some AoE buffs.
Now, in the third tree, BG does get 'elite training', and a Hatred % based disrupt. But Elite training helps 1 other person, and disrupt only yourself. Meanwhile, IB, gets 'Told ya so' tactic, giving everyone within 100feet AP anytime he uses grudge-costing abilities.
NB: IB has some spicy core tactics, eg on parry, gain 30 grudge (combined with permanent +25% parry chance ability...). +armor. Block an attack: only take 85% dmg for 5s. Seen it all before: half-duration snares, and -15% dmg bonus from taking crits;

How about Chosen, or KotBS.
Chosen: 'destined for victory' tactic: 200 Morale anytime you block. The AoE buffs/debuff aura's. a +disrupt ability that also silences the caster.
KotBS: Solar Flare, away with your morale. AoE aura's. +15% disrupt chance tactic for holding a shield. BG's disrupt chance is dependant on Hatred, and high up in a tree. Vigilance: -50% all damage taken for 10s. Stay focused Aura + focused mending tactic: +15% healing received to everyone. Bellow commands tactic: how does +action points/second for everyone sound for turtling up?

I acknowledge BG has some good abilities (elite training; the long distance knockback;...)
but really, the best turtle tank?

If you are speaking of single-person survivability, well, that doesn't accomplish all that much anyhow. And YET, even you say "any kind of organized group will still kill you no matter what".
What's the harm in making it take a bit longer to kill you & your Dark Protector?

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TreefAM
Posts: 676

Re: Some Black Guard suggestions for BG Tank

Post#12 » Tue May 18, 2021 12:22 pm

Please don't touch bgs you will just mess them up thanks.

Auzor
Posts: 46

Re: Some Black Guard suggestions for BG Tank

Post#13 » Thu May 20, 2021 10:05 pm

Felt like posting an update regarding proposed BG *tank* changes.


Suggestions:
[*] Terrifying Foe (first tactic in the tanking tree): make the + toughness buff, also apply *for half the value* to your dark protector if you are wearing a shield.
I'd still like to see a more gradual scaling, i.e. +5% toughness per 10 hatred. (at max hatred, your dark protector would gain +25% toughness then)

[*]Anger drives me:
here, I am pretty... jealous, of IB's 'Oathbound' ability, which enables IB to give out a permanent +25% parry to themselves, and their oath friend.
Note that parry also works for 'guard' damage.
3% parry per 10 hatred imo does not compare as: * it takes up a tactic slot; instead of 1 ability cooldown every 10s. * it does not apply to your dark protector; * no initiative bonus; * parry bonus changes with your hatred. You need to be at 80+ hatred to be equal.
--> I want to remove this tactic, in favor of 'utility'. BG has no less than 3 defensive tactics which scale with hatred. (parry, block, disrupt).
--> I propose changing 'None shall pass'.

[*]None Shall pass : I still think, changing it to a non-channeled, bonus (block) --> Parry & damage reduction ability (which would apply to your *guarded* target too, would be a good thing.
+25% *parry* for 10s, and take only 80% damage for yourself, and your guarded target. During this time, whenever you block or parry, deal dmg back.
Better than 'Oathbound', but has only 1/3rd the uptime.
The change from 'block' to 'parry' means it is now an accessible defensive ability for 2-handers. (but, the '+parry' tactic is going away)
BG would have 'hold the line' for + 'ranged' defense, this for + melee defense, and I'll be giving 'force of fury' bonus block chance.

[*] Anger drives me[/b] Make 'Crush the weak' use Hatred, instead of scaling with it, reducing crit chance, and critical damage, by 15%.
Then, the tactic slot, makes the 'Crush the Weak', an AoE (30 feet) debuff for 5?s.

[*] Wave of Scorn:
for 55 action points, add a debuff: For those hit, the next ability with a casting time used within 10s, will charge 50% slower. Ability after that, will charge 25% slower.
(imo fits the idea of BG as 'anti-magic', Wave of Scorn does have a 20s cooldown, so it's not exactly spammable)

[*]Shielded by hate Your block chance is increased by 10%. Anytime you block an attack, there is a 10% +5% per 10 hatred chance, that you'll remove 1 curse/hex/ailment from yourself & your dark protector, once every 3 seconds.
So, at 50 hatred: 35% chance that when you block, you'll remove a debuff. Change the lockout timer as needed for balance.

[*] Force of Fury[/b] I'd still like to see a more gradual approach to hatred level, and a reduction in crit damage (stacking with 'Crush the Weak').
Gives +25% block chance to you, and whenever you block during this time you deal damage back.
Also increases the armor & decreases the chance you are crit & crit damage you take for 10s. This applies to dark protector as well.
Per 10 hate: 3% less likely to be critically hit, and take 3% less damage from critical hits.

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Amdus
Posts: 115

Re: Some Black Guard suggestions for BG Tank

Post#14 » Sat May 29, 2021 12:02 pm

sergteo wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 11:15 am You are joking right? If this is your argument why IB is "better" than BG it's either a bad attempt of trolling or just you complaining for the sake of complaining, dude.
Like, you know that ironbreaker needs grudges to make BOTH the skills that you've posted somewhat viable in terms of damage? And that blackguard has easier time to get these resources that make the annoying mechanic actually somewhat of a buff. Blackguard is a very complete tank, perhaps falls lil bit short in SnB spec, but its way more viable in 2h and hybrid specs than IB and much more useful to the group overall in said spec, appart from having somewhat the same damage (actually i think it has more raw damage but less burst potential due to some nasty aoe skills that can help with aoe pressure).

Ironbreaker needs a lot of attention, not saying is a bad tank but definitely needs a tunning, specially in how their mechanic works and revamping some useless tactics. It's a very dedicated (rr85+ myself) class and needs the right hands: it's window for mistakes is extremely low, due to the ammount of task you have to perform in a short ammount of time and the way you have to think every global cooldown.
What a disingenous and dishonest post you have made here:

1- The grudge mechanic and hate mechanic work exactly in the same way. The only difference being that IB builds it faster from 0 up to 60 and from that point builds it slower, which isn't really a problem since as a tank a lot of people will be hitting you and you will most likely always be at 100. Unless you're a bad tank that stays in the back, which isn't a balance concern but a skill one.

2-Blackguard is an extremely incomplete tank. He only has 1 useful buff for the group which is 10% increased crit chance. Other than that, any other tank can do the same as a BG but better.

·The skill that grants 75 base toughness to the guarded player? IB has it too, but with a tactic that makes affect everyone around the guarded in a 20ft radius (group utility).

·The skill that debuffs 1 player with 20% reduced chance to crit at MAX HATE? SM has it too, except it's a tactic that reduces it by 25%.

·Murderous wrath? the attack that ignores 25% of enemy armor and adds a 144 base damage component? IB has it too. Except it's an AoE attack with unlimited targets, and reduces armor up to 100% based off grudge. Additionally you can use a tacting that will knockdown/knockback and slow by 40% for 10s.

·The 3% increased parry based off hate? IB has 5% increased parry and damage at all times with tactic, additionally you can spec oathbound which will gran you a total of 30% parry at all times, regardless of the grudge, and also will affect your oathfriend by 25%. So in the end you have the same as a BG at max hate, while having 10% more damage and also giving your oathfriend 25% parry and base initiative of 50 (improves with mastery points).

3- You can't discuss a balance change based off anecdotal events. You have to base a balance change/suggestion off MATH and NUMBERS. And when we look close to those 2, you'd have to be blind to deny that between IB and BG, if you chose the later you're clearly handicapping yourself. Everything a BG can do (Which isn't much) an IB can do it better.

4- On the part of "IB needs a lot of attention". If you put the mental contortions aside, it can be read as: "Ironbreaker has currently way too much utility making it hard for a player to choose on what skills to use due to the fact that we can do pretty much anything at any moment."

If you have played both classes and you're an honest player, you know full well that either BG needs a buff or IB needs a nerf. But of course since IB has had the upper hand for a while and people grew accostumed to it, you don't want a nerf, instead you want a BUFF! :lol: Some want skills to be merged so you can retain utily and optimize it by doing more while pressing less buttons :lol:

I could have kept going on the point 2 for a full essay but I pass. it's honestly concerning the lack of self-reflection.

nonfactor
Posts: 160

Re: Some Black Guard suggestions for BG Tank

Post#15 » Sat May 29, 2021 12:58 pm

Amdus wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 12:02 pm If you have played both classes and you're an honest player, you know full well that either BG needs a buff or IB needs a nerf. But of course since IB has had the upper hand for a while and people grew accostumed to it, you don't want a nerf, instead you want a BUFF! :lol: Some want skills to be merged so you can retain utily and optimize it by doing more while pressing less buttons :lol:
cant believe my own eyes lol

blechkautz
Posts: 83

Re: Some Black Guard suggestions for BG Tank

Post#16 » Sat May 29, 2021 1:22 pm

Amdus wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 12:02 pm
sergteo wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 11:15 am You are joking right? If this is your argument why IB is "better" than BG it's either a bad attempt of trolling or just you complaining for the sake of complaining, dude.
Like, you know that ironbreaker needs grudges to make BOTH the skills that you've posted somewhat viable in terms of damage? And that blackguard has easier time to get these resources that make the annoying mechanic actually somewhat of a buff. Blackguard is a very complete tank, perhaps falls lil bit short in SnB spec, but its way more viable in 2h and hybrid specs than IB and much more useful to the group overall in said spec, appart from having somewhat the same damage (actually i think it has more raw damage but less burst potential due to some nasty aoe skills that can help with aoe pressure).

Ironbreaker needs a lot of attention, not saying is a bad tank but definitely needs a tunning, specially in how their mechanic works and revamping some useless tactics. It's a very dedicated (rr85+ myself) class and needs the right hands: it's window for mistakes is extremely low, due to the ammount of task you have to perform in a short ammount of time and the way you have to think every global cooldown.
What a disingenous and dishonest post you have made here:

1- The grudge mechanic and hate mechanic work exactly in the same way. The only difference being that IB builds it faster from 0 up to 60 and from that point builds it slower, which isn't really a problem since as a tank a lot of people will be hitting you and you will most likely always be at 100. Unless you're a bad tank that stays in the back, which isn't a balance concern but a skill one.

2-Blackguard is an extremely incomplete tank. He only has 1 useful buff for the group which is 10% increased crit chance. Other than that, any other tank can do the same as a BG but better.

·The skill that grants 75 base toughness to the guarded player? IB has it too, but with a tactic that makes affect everyone around the guarded in a 20ft radius (group utility).

·The skill that debuffs 1 player with 20% reduced chance to crit at MAX HATE? SM has it too, except it's a tactic that reduces it by 25%.

·Murderous wrath? the attack that ignores 25% of enemy armor and adds a 144 base damage component? IB has it too. Except it's an AoE attack with unlimited targets, and reduces armor up to 100% based off grudge. Additionally you can use a tacting that will knockdown/knockback and slow by 40% for 10s.

·The 3% increased parry based off hate? IB has 5% increased parry and damage at all times with tactic, additionally you can spec oathbound which will gran you a total of 30% parry at all times, regardless of the grudge, and also will affect your oathfriend by 25%. So in the end you have the same as a BG at max hate, while having 10% more damage and also giving your oathfriend 25% parry and base initiative of 50 (improves with mastery points).

3- You can't discuss a balance change based off anecdotal events. You have to base a balance change/suggestion off MATH and NUMBERS. And when we look close to those 2, you'd have to be blind to deny that between IB and BG, if you chose the later you're clearly handicapping yourself. Everything a BG can do (Which isn't much) an IB can do it better.

4- On the part of "IB needs a lot of attention". If you put the mental contortions aside, it can be read as: "Ironbreaker has currently way too much utility making it hard for a player to choose on what skills to use due to the fact that we can do pretty much anything at any moment."

If you have played both classes and you're an honest player, you know full well that either BG needs a buff or IB needs a nerf. But of course since IB has had the upper hand for a while and people grew accostumed to it, you don't want a nerf, instead you want a BUFF! :lol: Some want skills to be merged so you can retain utily and optimize it by doing more while pressing less buttons :lol:

I could have kept going on the point 2 for a full essay but I pass. it's honestly concerning the lack of self-reflection.
You should maybe start reading the IB skill descriptions, befor you post false statments:

1. False. Bg gets hat on hitting, IB not. That's a big difference.

2. Crimson Death is a debuff, not a buff. And Bg has several dbuffs for his grp like aoe snare, parry/block debuff or wounds debuff. The second part of the stament idk what else you want besides the best punt, the best kd, the best armor debuff among tanks (mara/wl is better but you said tanks) etc. for the sub points
a) I have never seen an IB use that tactic and i wouldn't recommend anybody using that tactic unless you run 2IBs where you can think about it. On the other hand, the bg toughness buff also heals him and his Dark Protector and cost ap instead of grudges, but sure they are the same abilities.
b) Sm has to use one of for tactic slots to turn an otherwise completly useless ability (in pvp) into something slightly better tahn the core ib/bg stuff, sounds ok or even bad for the sm.
c) I don't know why you would compare an aoe ability with lower base dmg and a 10s cooldown to a spammable singletarget ability. Seems pretty pointless to compare if you ask me.
d) Ok Ib can also have up to 30% parry buff if you invest 18 mastery points and use your buff every 10s which ends up giving your OF also 25% parry, while BG get's 30% parry (if you have hate problems on Bg i don't know how to help you) for 8 mastery points.

3. Maybe tell us how ib can provide a better punt than the bg or provide +10% crit for everybody you hit with crimson or provide a toughness debuff or an ap drain or an stacking armorbuff with -45% chance to be crit? Sure Ib has it's own stuff but that statement is just wrong.

4. No comment for the first part, but claiming ib is overperforming compared to bg isn't something i'd say.

Auzor
Posts: 46

Re: Some Black Guard suggestions for BG Tank

Post#17 » Sat May 29, 2021 3:22 pm

1). I'd agree that IB builds less grudge, than BG builds hatred.

2) Crimson Death is 2-handed spec, top of the tree.
And like any attack, it can be blocked/parried.
Then I think it can be cleansed etc.
AoE snare: sure. In the middle tree. Oh look, IB has one in their 3rd tree, and theirs costs less...
Btw: IB is a pure AoE, BG's is a cone; despite the 10 feet advantage, in hectic scenario's, I'd much rather have a 360° AoE...
Parry/Block debuff: which still doesn't cancel out IB's +25% parry. And IB gets other things, like perma + armor buff, corporeal resistance buff,..
Best punt, Best kd, best armor debuff: all of which are tied to hatred level.
a) look for utility/group buffs in the BG tactics... see for much that attack heals.
b) SM: gets whirlling whirlwhind, or 'Raking Talons' for SnB: nerf everyone's dmg by 20%, and keep applying it. 1 questionable tactic does not a garbage tank make. SM's get a 25% chance per attack to heal or whatever, and their dmg shield applies to all in their group within range.
c) If you're spamming the BG's armor penning attack, you're not using the other abilities, like the dmg shield, the heal, the debuffs,...
d) False comparison. IB: for 6 Mastery points, +25% parry to self, AND oathfriend, AND an Initiative buff. BG: 8 points, AND a tactic slot. +3% parry per 10 hatred. If you're not using Hatred costing attacks as BG, I don't know how to help you; you're simply being dishonest here. The moment you drop below 90% hatred, you're worse than the IB ability being used every 10s, not yet accounting for the initiative buff, or the oathfriend. Math time: 2 people with +25% parry >>> 1 with +30%. And you're not getting +30% parry even. Pretending that these are somehow equal, is simply being a moron, or dishonest.

3) Crimson death: again, 2-handed build.
Toughness debuff, AP drain: single-target. but sure.
Stacking armor buff, -45% crit: you and 1 other. Top ability in the SnB tree. And again: that -45% requires 90 hatred. If you're doing toughness debuff, you're spending Hatred. And it doesn't have permanent uptime. As the IB/BG's teammate: would you really prefer this over perma +25% parry? And compare the mastery points investment there...
you didn't mention the IB root/snare break, which also helps his friend..

4) as SnB, BG is in a sorry state compared to IB.
btw: compare the +block tactics:
+1% block per 10 hatred, vs
+10% block, and perma 5% dmg reduction.
Just rubbing some more salt into the wound...

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Amdus
Posts: 115

Re: Some Black Guard suggestions for BG Tank

Post#18 » Sat May 29, 2021 5:46 pm

blechkautz wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 1:22 pm You should maybe start reading the IB skill descriptions, befor you post false statments:

1. False. Bg gets hat on hitting, IB not. That's a big difference.

2. Crimson Death is a debuff, not a buff. And Bg has several dbuffs for his grp like aoe snare, parry/block debuff or wounds debuff. The second part of the stament idk what else you want besides the best punt, the best kd, the best armor debuff among tanks (mara/wl is better but you said tanks) etc. for the sub points
a) I have never seen an IB use that tactic and i wouldn't recommend anybody using that tactic unless you run 2IBs where you can think about it. On the other hand, the bg toughness buff also heals him and his Dark Protector and cost ap instead of grudges, but sure they are the same abilities.
b) Sm has to use one of for tactic slots to turn an otherwise completly useless ability (in pvp) into something slightly better tahn the core ib/bg stuff, sounds ok or even bad for the sm.
c) I don't know why you would compare an aoe ability with lower base dmg and a 10s cooldown to a spammable singletarget ability. Seems pretty pointless to compare if you ask me.
d) Ok Ib can also have up to 30% parry buff if you invest 18 mastery points and use your buff every 10s which ends up giving your OF also 25% parry, while BG get's 30% parry (if you have hate problems on Bg i don't know how to help you) for 8 mastery points.

3. Maybe tell us how ib can provide a better punt than the bg or provide +10% crit for everybody you hit with crimson or provide a toughness debuff or an ap drain or an stacking armorbuff with -45% chance to be crit? Sure Ib has it's own stuff but that statement is just wrong.

4. No comment for the first part, but claiming ib is overperforming compared to bg isn't something i'd say.
I have read the descriptions of both in depth, I play both classes actually. My BG is 80RR and my IB is 64, I only play the BG for looks, the IB is VASTLY superior to the BG by a huge amount, so why would I handicap myself?

1. It's not false at all. You're a tank, you will spend most of the time holding the line and absorbing damage in the frontline, not chasing people around, at any moment the battle starts you'll be 100 hate/100 grudge at all times. Unless you go solo roaming, but that's another story and again, it's an anecdote if you solo roam as a tank.

2.KotBS has a crimson death equivalent, and an almost identical punt, while still being extremely useful for the entirety of the WB and more tanky... but back to the point...Crimson death is at the moment the only reason BG is taken into wb's. And remember crimson death is 2h mandatory, not SnB. Yes BG has one AoE snare with a 20s Cooldown, in the Loathing tree, requires 10 POINTS. IB has a 10s CD AoE that ignores armor based off grudge, knocksback and snares for the same duration, meaning it's a 100% uptime if you keep reapplying it, it's on the path of vengeance and only requires 8 points. How can you claim this is equal or that the IB doesn't have the upper hand?

·The best punt in the game, is extremely arguable (KotBS has about the same if not the exact same punt distance). The best KD? Sure, but what's the cooldown and the requirement of said KD? You know you just can't run in and use it right? You must have blocked and you need to be at 100 hate to make it the best KD in the game. At 0 hate is actually one of the worst KD in the game (2s), and remember that first you need to block.

·The armor debuff? IB has a 660 armor tactic, IB also has the guarded attack skill as a base skill for the third tree, giving 618 armor at rank 0 for the IB and the oathfriend, it scales with mastery points up to the same as the last ability on the loathing tree of the BG. I repeat, last ability of a tree vs a base one. The reduced chance to be crit is good indeed, but as good as to justify being the last skill of a SnB tree while IB has an identical base one without the crit reduction, for lower cooldown? Oh wait, I mean NO COOLDOWN (20s CD Force of fury vs NO CD Guarded attack).

a) Again a mixed answer, one is an anecdote, claiming that some use or not use the tactic, which isn't a point, just an anecdote. The second part however is just ridiculous. You know that is a "heal" based on damage dealt right? This means that if you're lucky you can heal for 100 hp at max hate, if you're lucky, and remember it only works on yourself and your guarded friend. Whereas IB gets 120 toughness at max skill points for himself and to everyone 20ft around the guarded friend, if tactic used. What group utility does SnB BG have, again?

b) Again anecdotes. If someone wants to spend the tactic or not it's their problem, the point is that a tactic is superior to a core ability of the supposed "master debuffer" class.

c)Of course I compare them, because they are the equivalent of each other. Spamable? right for 40AP, on a single target with no other benefit than ignoring 25% armor. Whereas IB gets an AoE snare, a KB/KD and can ignore up to 100% armor deppending on grudge, the later being permanent while the first two requiring the tactic.
blechkautz wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 1:22 pm d)Ok Ib can also have up to 30% parry buff if you invest 18 mastery points and use your buff every 10s which ends up giving your OF also 25% parry, while BG get's 30% parry (if you have hate problems on Bg i don't know how to help you) for 8 mastery points.
The important point here is at: "giving your OF also 25% parry". The BG gives NOTHING. It's all for himself, IB gets the same amount for himself and also 25% on the OF, I know IB only players don't see the difference, but there is a big one here, again it's called utility.

3. IB doesn't need any of that because IB has already better group utility to offer. In fact, as I have said, It has so much things to offer that some "famous" IB has made a blog arguing that it's difficult to keep everything up. Instead of acknowledging that this is an overperfoming class, it is being suggested on other threads to merge skills so IB can still be as useful but at 100% uptime. And once more, when you take into account the WB play, a BG is an absolutely useless tank for a wb, especially if it's SnB. A chosen will be much more useful, a BO despite the "nerfs" will still be more useful than a SnB BG. One 2h BG per 24 man warband is already more than enough, and all you will do is spam crimson death, because everything else will get bypassed by order buffs, effectively nullifying your debuffs.


4. I also know what the solution is here, it's to keep playing the IB, because once you have played both, why would you purposedly handicap yourself? Aside from looking cool with a polearm and a spiky armor, IB is vastly superior to BG in all the three talent options by a huge margin, so why would I go back to play my BG? If anything I would make a chosen or a BO on destro, SnB BG is almost useless and it's not even an exageration.

I personally think, and I genuinely belive that BG needs a few tweaks, not necessarily "buffs", but tweaks, minor adjustments, a few things here and there.

I don't even know why I waste my time writting those essays, there's a huge problem involving lack of self reflection coming from mainly order players, but also a lack of interest/voice from destro side which is either the "LEAVE THINGS AS THEY ARE!" fearing more nerfs or just straight up not giving a flying **** and just re-rolling order like in example I have done. But it's all alright as long as we can keep doing PvD for 1 star IC's and succesfully defending 99% of the forts even with AAO as high as 60% (because there's a balance between tanks in both factions, right?) things are okay, nothing to discuss.

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Auzor
Posts: 46

Re: Some Black Guard suggestions for BG Tank

Post#19 » Sat May 29, 2021 8:01 pm

(I had started a new thread, but perhaps I shouldn't have. Gotta say, not a huge amount of people commenting, but I suppose that's to be expected)

I look at the BG tank tree, and I do have several remarks & suggestions:
Remark:
1) 2 'survivability' abilities, are in the 3rd tree. same for IB. May well be fine... but why go tank tree then.
2) None of the tank tree abilities cost 'hatred'.
3) BG has 3 tactics, that are related to defense: + parry, +block, and + disrupt, all scaling with hatred. None of the tank tree tactics offer any group (or even Dark Protector) advantage or utility. That is without 'Terrifying Foe', +T scaling with... Hatred.
4) multiple abilities doing the same thing, or related to the same thing. 'Crush the weak': - enemy crit chance. Force of Fury: less likely to be crit. But, see nr 5:
5) single-target (de)buffs. No wonder Chosen is tank nr 1 in group setting. NB: BG top tank ability, gives - crit chance. Chosen has a -10% chance to be crit for entire group, whenever he crits. That's on top of Aura's.
The best BG (de)buff, is Crimson Death which is... offensive, and the top 2-hander ability.
So much for tanking.

Suggestion time:

* Swap 'Shield of Rage' (dmg shield, 10s cd) with 'Feeding on Weakness' between 2nd & 3rd tree.
Shield of rage: if you have a shield equipped, also increases your block chance by 10% for 10s.
Makes levelling SnB quite a bit better. The +block with hatred tactic will be removed (replaced).
This 'Shield of Rage' has an advantage over KotBS & similar +Block / +Parry attacks: you don't need an enemy nearby; just hatred. Otoh, it deals no damage of course. But it can't be parried/blocked either :p

"Feeding on Weakness": make this attack, undefendable, 10s cd, increase the healing component. (SM has an undefendable attack from early on).
The current healing, scales with damage dealt. oo-kay... except it really doesn't deal a whole lot of dmg. Maybe if *this* was the armor-piercing attack or something.
But really: just increase the heal. It's only yourself & 1 other person.

"Terrifying Foe": Rename to "Shielded by Hate". Make it trigger from 'Shield of Rage', and also apply to your Dark Protector.
10s duration, grants +40% toughness, decreasing by 2% every second. ( So after 5s, is at +30% toughness)
This makes 'Shield of Rage', the best BG ability. NB: IB still has a +25% parry, 100% uptime, to self & oathfriend. Doesn't cost a single tactic slot even. KotBS/Chosen have their Aura's...
It also makes for a bit of a 'swingy' damage: at first, +40% toughness, and damage shield. Then, as the shield is destroyed, the toughness is dropping a bit too.
If we assume 500 toughness, and we average this to giving +30% toughness, then that is +150 toughness to your Dark Protector. Toughness is hardly game-breaking. (again: I'd much, MUCH rather be handing out +25% parry to Dark Protector, without even needing a tactic slot. )
Tanks like Swordmaster & BO, have a weaker shield bubble.. but it applies to everyone in the group within range.

* None shall pass: no longer a channeled ability. +20% block chance to you for 10s.
You & your dark protector, take only 80% dmg from all sources for the duration.
40s cooldown.
You could guard 1 person, Dark Protector another, and provide some pretty decent survival bonus to both; via guard, and better defensive abilities.

* Put 'Crush the Weak' in the Loathing tree, swapped with 'Wave of Scorn'.
Crush the Weak requires a shield, becomes an AoE around you (25 feet?), costs 30 hatred, deals it's current damage, and reduces enemy armor penetration by X%. (% to be decided. I propose 20-25%, if it is multiplicative. e.g. an enemy attack has 40% armor pen. loses 20-25% of that, that's 8-10. Attack is resolved at 30-32% armor pen.
This attack generates increased threat. (tanking tree has little + AoE threat abilities. I'd consider the same for 'Wave of Scorn' btw.
*that* is I think, something different, unique etc; and something worth bringing a BG *tank* for.
2-handed BG still brings the +Crit AoE. SnB BG brings armor pen reduction.
It is also, another Hatred costing ability for the tank tree.
The more armor pen the enemy has (a 100% armor pen ability, from behind the target?), the better this is, as it's multiplicative.
Of course, no effect vs 'resist' damages.
10s duration, 10s cooldown?


"Wave of Scorn": for 55 actions points: besides the current snare: also increases the cast time of the next ability with cast time within 10s, by +50%, and the one after, by +25% for enemies hit.
(replace by +1s/+0.5s if preferable).
Fits the idea of BG as 'anti-magic' tank imo. I don't think BG has an AoE interrupt, so this is a 'replacement'.

* '+Block tactic': renamed to 'Terrifying foe' (or perhaps 'Spell Destroyer'?):
Shatter enchantment no longer has a requirement.
It removes 1 enchantment, 1 Heal over time effect, 1 damage absorbing effect, and 1 Blessing from the target.
For each effect removed, the cooldown is increased, by +2-3 seconds.
Inspiration from the 'Spellbreaker' ability for Slayers; this seems like just the sort of thing Dark Elves would/should have.
Perhaps it should be in a different tree, but I'm trying to buff SnB here, and again, the 'anti-magic' tree, has plenty of healing/protection abilities.
Compared to Spellbreaker: also removes a HoT. But, does not deal extra damage per effect removed, instead has the cooldown increased. And it requires a tactic slot.
SM has the cd reduction ability, mirrored by the Choppa on Destro.
Why not mirror the Slayers ability with a BG tactic?

* Force of Fury: requires a shield?
also increases your & Dark Protectors resists slightly;
and: increases movement speed by +25% for the duration.
(something a bit unique to BG. Other tanks can do better morale/AP boosting,... +25% movement speed for the group would be OP. But for 1 other player? NB: not a root/snare break; which is something IB has)


Implementing all changes might well be OP.
But this is the style of changes that I think could really help SnB BG:
an AoE + cast time (20s cooldown!), an AoE armor pen reduction (something AoE, unique... ),
replacing at LEAST 1 + 'defense' tactic, making the effect 'baseline' in the rotation.
abilities (/1 tactic) that actually, truly help your Dark Protector; more so than an Aura helps everyone...
and 1 spicy change to 'Shatter Enchantment', though requiring a tactic slot.
That should be highly valuable if the BG tank can get to a tunneled-target.

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TARDIONm
Posts: 75

Re: Some Black Guard suggestions for BG Tank

Post#20 » Sat May 29, 2021 9:47 pm

I play on BG and on IB and it seems to me that they should not make any of the above changes, classes and their skills in my opinion are well balanced relative to each other and all these changes look good, but inappropriate, as for me.
FMJ

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