Some Black Guard suggestions for BG Tank

[Auzor]

I play on BG and on IB and it seems to me that they should not make any of the above changes, classes and their skills in my opinion are well balanced relative to each other and all these changes look good, but inappropriate, as for me.

Any order SnB tank, is better for large scale (RvR, city) than SnB BG.
The 1 thing BG offers, is +crit, which is the top, 2-handed ability.
Arguably, same thing now for BO.
Yet SnB is needed, to do 'Hold the Line'.
SnB BG has all +defenses, tied to tactics. afaik it is the only tank that has this. And these tactics aren't that great either; at full hatred, the BG block tactic is still worse than the IB one.
The parry tactic needs to be at 90 hatred, to be better than the first IB ability... and still doesn't apply to your Dark Protector, nor does it offer an initiative bonus.

In order to prevent 2-handed BG from becoming OP, the easiest way is to tie 'shield' requirement into the abilities that get buffed; which I did for several.

I welcome some alternative suggestions, focused on SnB, group/area utility.

[TARDIONm]

hah lol , ok. In my mind atm , much better for the WB at the order only SM, in comparison with the BO. BG good in SNB , good in 2h how IB. Chosen good in SnB , good in 2h how KoTBS.

[forsa]

Spoiler:

Any order SnB tank, is better for large scale (RvR, city) than SnB BG.
The 1 thing BG offers, is +crit, which is the top, 2-handed ability.
Arguably, same thing now for BO.
Yet SnB is needed, to do 'Hold the Line'.
SnB BG has all +defenses, tied to tactics. afaik it is the only tank that has this. And these tactics aren't that great either; at full hatred, the BG block tactic is still worse than the IB one.
The parry tactic needs to be at 90 hatred, to be better than the first IB ability... and still doesn't apply to your Dark Protector, nor does it offer an initiative bonus.

In order to prevent 2-handed BG from becoming OP, the easiest way is to tie 'shield' requirement into the abilities that get buffed; which I did for several.

I welcome some alternative suggestions, focused on SnB, group/area utility.

You should stop using that stuff you are on.

SnB BG has all +defenses, tied to tactics. afaik it is the only tank that has this. And these tactics aren't that great either; at full hatred, the BG block tactic is still worse than the IB one.

Kn has + parry tactics that is tied to block skill and Disrupt tactic that is tied to SnB. Bo and IB has Block tactic.
All tanks would trade anything for the +30 parry tactic, that is not tied to any skill.
BG has Non Shall Pass +50% block channel that pumps his rage to 100 almost instantly. That is on top of tactic. Stop spreading misinformation.

The parry tactic needs to be at 90 hatred, to be better than the first IB ability... and still doesn't apply to your Dark Protector, nor does it offer an initiative bonus.

At 100 hate BG has better parry than IB. IB uses grudges for the parry skill and it is shatterable, unlike BG tactic.
BG has Force of Fury: the best 2 man buff in game that grants -45% inc crit, armor buff that stacks with pots and damage reduction. And its FREE. No other tank can buff your guarded like bg.
SnB BG retains the AoE wounds debuff, AoE snare is better than IB one, Elite Training is better than Oathstone, is lower in tree and buffs the protected.
You should play this game a little more on other classes instead of typing this "buffmybg1111!" posts.
BG is a king of 6v6 and small scale.

[sergteo]

You are joking right? If this is your argument why IB is "better" than BG it's either a bad attempt of trolling or just you complaining for the sake of complaining, dude.
Like, you know that ironbreaker needs grudges to make BOTH the skills that you've posted somewhat viable in terms of damage? And that blackguard has easier time to get these resources that make the annoying mechanic actually somewhat of a buff. Blackguard is a very complete tank, perhaps falls lil bit short in SnB spec, but its way more viable in 2h and hybrid specs than IB and much more useful to the group overall in said spec, appart from having somewhat the same damage (actually i think it has more raw damage but less burst potential due to some nasty aoe skills that can help with aoe pressure).

Ironbreaker needs a lot of attention, not saying is a bad tank but definitely needs a tunning, specially in how their mechanic works and revamping some useless tactics. It's a very dedicated (rr85+ myself) class and needs the right hands: it's window for mistakes is extremely low, due to the ammount of task you have to perform in a short ammount of time and the way you have to think every global cooldown.

What a disingenous and dishonest post you have made here:

1- The grudge mechanic and hate mechanic work exactly in the same way. The only difference being that IB builds it faster from 0 up to 60 and from that point builds it slower, which isn't really a problem since as a tank a lot of people will be hitting you and you will most likely always be at 100. Unless you're a bad tank that stays in the back, which isn't a balance concern but a skill one.

2-Blackguard is an extremely incomplete tank. He only has 1 useful buff for the group which is 10% increased crit chance. Other than that, any other tank can do the same as a BG but better.

·The skill that grants 75 base toughness to the guarded player? IB has it too, but with a tactic that makes affect everyone around the guarded in a 20ft radius (group utility).

·The skill that debuffs 1 player with 20% reduced chance to crit at MAX HATE? SM has it too, except it's a tactic that reduces it by 25%.

·Murderous wrath? the attack that ignores 25% of enemy armor and adds a 144 base damage component? IB has it too. Except it's an AoE attack with unlimited targets, and reduces armor up to 100% based off grudge. Additionally you can use a tacting that will knockdown/knockback and slow by 40% for 10s.

·The 3% increased parry based off hate? IB has 5% increased parry and damage at all times with tactic, additionally you can spec oathbound which will gran you a total of 30% parry at all times, regardless of the grudge, and also will affect your oathfriend by 25%. So in the end you have the same as a BG at max hate, while having 10% more damage and also giving your oathfriend 25% parry and base initiative of 50 (improves with mastery points).

3- You can't discuss a balance change based off anecdotal events. You have to base a balance change/suggestion off MATH and NUMBERS. And when we look close to those 2, you'd have to be blind to deny that between IB and BG, if you chose the later you're clearly handicapping yourself. Everything a BG can do (Which isn't much) an IB can do it better.

4- On the part of "IB needs a lot of attention". If you put the mental contortions aside, it can be read as: "Ironbreaker has currently way too much utility making it hard for a player to choose on what skills to use due to the fact that we can do pretty much anything at any moment."

If you have played both classes and you're an honest player, you know full well that either BG needs a buff or IB needs a nerf. But of course since IB has had the upper hand for a while and people grew accostumed to it, you don't want a nerf, instead you want a BUFF! Some want skills to be merged so you can retain utily and optimize it by doing more while pressing less buttons

I could have kept going on the point 2 for a full essay but I pass. it's honestly concerning the lack of self-reflection.

1- The grudge mechanic and hate mechanic work exactly in the same way. The only difference being that IB builds it faster from 0 up to 60 and from that point builds it slower, which isn't really a problem since as a tank a lot of people will be hitting you and you will most likely always be at 100. Unless you're a bad tank that stays in the back, which isn't a balance concern but a skill one.

So BG gets hate when hitting and being hit and IB only gets it when he is being hit, that is "working in the exact same way"? lel

2-Blackguard is an extremely incomplete tank. He only has 1 useful buff for the group which is 10% increased crit chance. Other than that, any other tank can do the same as a BG but better.

AoE 10% Crit debuff, double AP drain, heal debuff, AoE 10% parry debuff,AoE snare, shield that works vs all types of damage (unlike IB magic one), M4 Khaine Warding that heals everyone whenever someone blocks perfect for fort push, wounds debuff.......ZzZz

3-·The skill that grants 75 base toughness to the guarded player? IB has it too, but with a tactic that makes affect everyone around the guarded in a 20ft radius (group utility).

No IB takes that tactic ever, since it doesnt stack with tough aura from knight and if u run tough potion (as you should) it does not stack as well

4-·Murderous wrath? the attack that ignores 25% of enemy armor and adds a 144 base damage component? IB has it too. Except it's an AoE attack with unlimited targets, and reduces armor up to 100% based off grudge. Additionally you can use a tacting that will knockdown/knockback and slow by 40% for 10s.

10 seconds cooldown on a skill that is basically fluff AoE damage, yikes, also u have spamable AoE skill and 2 AoE debuffs that deal damage as well, BG is just better in AoE fluff department sooooo

5-·The 3% increased parry based off hate? IB has 5% increased parry and damage at all times with tactic, additionally you can spec oathbound which will gran you a total of 30% parry at all times, regardless of the grudge, and also will affect your oathfriend by 25%. So in the end you have the same as a BG at max hate, while having 10% more damage and also giving your oathfriend 25% parry and base initiative of 50 (improves with mastery points).

so? what's your point? remove IB tanking utility because¿¿?¿ dawi offended you¿?

6- You can't discuss a balance change based off anecdotal events. You have to base a balance change/suggestion off MATH and NUMBERS. And when we look close to those 2, you'd have to be blind to deny that between IB and BG, if you chose the later you're clearly handicapping yourself. Everything a BG can do (Which isn't much) an IB can do it better.

I don't know wich "MATH and NUMBERS" you've chosen to make this comparisson but yeah, they don't add up. Talking about disingenous and dishonest post is exactly what you've done, instead of suggesting changes to improve the (yes it needs love as well) shield spec BG, u just randomly (and inaccurately as i've proved in my post) throw **** to IB. My BG needs waaay less tryhard mode than my IB in 2h spec, specially on small scale and is fun as **** to play.
IB is excelent tank and needs minor tweaks to make it more competitive (20 seconds oathfriend buffs and grudge mechanic same as hate).
anyway, cya in gunbad mid dawi hat8rs

[Amdus]

So BG gets hate when hitting and being hit and IB only gets it when he is being hit, that is "working in the exact same way"? lel

It's balanced because IB builds it faster at lower grudge, if as a tank you stay in the back avoiding being hit, then I have bad news for you.

AoE 10% Crit debuff, double AP drain, heal debuff, AoE 10% parry debuff,AoE snare, shield that works vs all types of damage (unlike IB magic one), M4 Khaine Warding that heals everyone whenever someone blocks perfect for fort push, wounds debuff.......ZzZz

We know the few things a BG has, we also know, and honest people especially knows and should admit that everything he has, other tanks have it too, but better. You just cherrypicked what was more convenient and ignored the things that contradicted you. Since it seems you have trouble reading, I'll sumarize a few of them again.

·Not AoE crit, but CONE crit debuff:
-BG's last skill on Malice tree.
-Kotbs 2nd tactic in path of conquest tree.*See below

·AoE Snare:
-BG 20s Cooldown.
-IB 10s cooldown (100% uptime).

·Crit reduction:
-BG 20% at max hate.
-SM 25% with tactic.

·Wounds debuff:
-BG 75 wounds debuff when you CRITICALLY HIT; Last tactic on Malice.
-KotBS 75 wounds debuff at all times, core ability. *(Same ability that increases crit chance)
-SM 162 wounds buff, phantom blade core ability, also heals for that amount.
162-75=87 where's the debuff exactly?

·AP drains? Almost all classes have AP drains. Though, have you made the math to see if the BG ap drains can truly debuff the AP buffs/regen from order? I think not to both.

·Shield that works against all types of damage? As far as I know, block condition checks are the same for all tanks.

·M4? BG's don't have any morale pump nor morale drain,thus building morales is incredibly difficult, same for IB, so perhaps needs a rework for both, or just take away morale pumps from all tanks, I'd be okay with it.

·So exactly, what's the real debuff a BG can apply?
-10% Parry strikethrough?
-Slayers have rampage.
-Engineers have pierce defenses, reducing their parry/block/dodge by 15% for 10s after a defense.
-Wh's also have a strikethrough...

I'm implying that it's not an "exclusive" but rather a "necessity" when you take in account each class own abilties to strikethrough, order has many but destro?

No IB takes that tactic ever.

Take or not a tactic, liniment, talisman, weapon, remove a skill from your action bars... etc
All of the above are anecdotes, not a real argument, the tactic is there to be taken, everything that comes after? Anecdotes.

since it doesnt stack with tough aura from knight

Then BG doesn't stack with Chosen's aura either.

10 seconds cooldown on a skill that is basically fluff AoE damage, yikes, also u have spamable AoE skill and 2 AoE debuffs that deal damage as well, BG is just better in AoE fluff department sooooo

We're not talking about damage, we're talking about utility. IB has a 10s CD snare, BG has a 20S CD snare, as I said previously, one may have a 100% uptime.

so? what's your point? remove IB tanking utility because¿¿?¿

Because the main issue with IB is that it has too much utility, unironically making IB uneficcient. You can also remove the initiative, or tweak the BG tactic. But god forbid "nerf" suggestions to your beloved IB for the sake of balance. All order tanks must remain group efficient, destro ones? Let's just stack chosens until they get nerfed too.

dawi offended you¿?

I don't understand this part.
Who's offended? Who's dawi?

I don't know wich "MATH and NUMBERS" you've chosen to make this comparisson but yeah, they don't add up. Talking about disingenous and dishonest post is exactly what you've done, instead of suggesting changes to improve the (yes it needs love as well) shield spec BG, u just randomly (and inaccurately as i've proved in my post) throw **** to IB. My BG needs waaay less tryhard mode than my IB in 2h spec, specially on small scale and is fun as **** to play.
anyway, cya in gunbad mid dawi hat8rs

I have detailed some of them above, not my problem if you're an IB fanboy. I haven't suggested any changes, you really have trouble comprehending texts. All I have done is discuss the class in comparison to others, I have said that it needs tweaks here and there, haven't suggested anything besides what is logical: Either rework BG's or simply rework the other tanks so they're all "balanced". Order tanks are extremely overpowered right now, something that hasn't been seen in a long time, they can do anything that destro can do but better, usually x2 times better as I have posted some examples above. You haven't "proved" anything else besides what you believe in your display of mental contortions.

City siege protection numbers? Where is BG? Where are all the other tanks? When do you see a BG above a BO, Chosen or any order tank? When the BG is BiS and the others are anni/conq?

My BG needs waaay less tryhard mode than my IB in 2h spec, specially on small scale and is fun as **** to play.

Has it ever crossed your thoughts that the reason is because it's lacking?

IB is excelent tank and needs minor tweaks to make it more competitive (20 seconds oathfriend buffs and grudge mechanic same as hate).

What's new here? The part where everyone knows that any tank is excelent compared to BG? Or the part where, despite being already overperforming in terms of utility and skill variety, dishonest people still wants "minor tweaks" instead of acknowledging that it's a nerf what it needs, since it's overperforming.

Instead we have people reliant on NB to play IB, attempting to push the merge of IB skills so it can keep the same group utility with less buttons, 100% uptime. All of this while BG is the absolute bottom tank on both sides and it has been like that for waaaaay too long.


Cringe plebbit tier image. And again I have no idea who Dawi is, and quite frankly I couldn't care less. It's not relevant to the discussion.

[sergteo]

So BG gets hate when hitting and being hit and IB only gets it when he is being hit, that is "working in the exact same way"? lel

It's balanced because IB builds it faster at lower grudge, if as a tank you stay in the back avoiding being hit, then I have bad news for you.

AoE 10% Crit debuff, double AP drain, heal debuff, AoE 10% parry debuff,AoE snare, shield that works vs all types of damage (unlike IB magic one), M4 Khaine Warding that heals everyone whenever someone blocks perfect for fort push, wounds debuff.......ZzZz

We know the few things a BG has, we also know, and honest people especially knows and should admit that everything he has, other tanks have it too, but better. You just cherrypicked what was more convenient and ignored the things that contradicted you. Since it seems you have trouble reading, I'll sumarize a few of them again.

·Not AoE crit, but CONE crit debuff:
-BG's last skill on Malice tree.
-Kotbs 2nd tactic in path of conquest tree.*See below

·AoE Snare:
-BG 20s Cooldown.
-IB 10s cooldown (100% uptime).

·Crit reduction:
-BG 20% at max hate.
-SM 25% with tactic.

·Wounds debuff:
-BG 75 wounds debuff when you CRITICALLY HIT; Last tactic on Malice.
-KotBS 75 wounds debuff at all times, core ability. *(Same ability that increases crit chance)
-SM 162 wounds buff, phantom blade core ability, also heals for that amount.
162-75=87 where's the debuff exactly?

·AP drains? Almost all classes have AP drains. Though, have you made the math to see if the BG ap drains can truly debuff the AP buffs/regen from order? I think not to both.

·Shield that works against all types of damage? As far as I know, block condition checks are the same for all tanks.

·M4? BG's don't have any morale pump nor morale drain,thus building morales is incredibly difficult, same for IB, so perhaps needs a rework for both, or just take away morale pumps from all tanks, I'd be okay with it.

·So exactly, what's the real debuff a BG can apply?
-10% Parry strikethrough?
-Slayers have rampage.
-Engineers have pierce defenses, reducing their parry/block/dodge by 15% for 10s after a defense.
-Wh's also have a strikethrough...

I'm implying that it's not an "exclusive" but rather a "necessity" when you take in account each class own abilties to strikethrough, order has many but destro?

No IB takes that tactic ever.

Take or not a tactic, liniment, talisman, weapon, remove a skill from your action bars... etc
All of the above are anecdotes, not a real argument, the tactic is there to be taken, everything that comes after? Anecdotes.

since it doesnt stack with tough aura from knight

Then BG doesn't stack with Chosen's aura either.

10 seconds cooldown on a skill that is basically fluff AoE damage, yikes, also u have spamable AoE skill and 2 AoE debuffs that deal damage as well, BG is just better in AoE fluff department sooooo

We're not talking about damage, we're talking about utility. IB has a 10s CD snare, BG has a 20S CD snare, as I said previously, one may have a 100% uptime.

so? what's your point? remove IB tanking utility because¿¿?¿

Because the main issue with IB is that it has too much utility, unironically making IB uneficcient. You can also remove the initiative, or tweak the BG tactic. But god forbid "nerf" suggestions to your beloved IB for the sake of balance. All order tanks must remain group efficient, destro ones? Let's just stack chosens until they get nerfed too.

dawi offended you¿?

I don't understand this part.
Who's offended? Who's dawi?

I don't know wich "MATH and NUMBERS" you've chosen to make this comparisson but yeah, they don't add up. Talking about disingenous and dishonest post is exactly what you've done, instead of suggesting changes to improve the (yes it needs love as well) shield spec BG, u just randomly (and inaccurately as i've proved in my post) throw **** to IB. My BG needs waaay less tryhard mode than my IB in 2h spec, specially on small scale and is fun as **** to play.
anyway, cya in gunbad mid dawi hat8rs

I have detailed some of them above, not my problem if you're an IB fanboy. I haven't suggested any changes, you really have trouble comprehending texts. All I have done is discuss the class in comparison to others, I have said that it needs tweaks here and there, haven't suggested anything besides what is logical: Either rework BG's or simply rework the other tanks so they're all "balanced". Order tanks are extremely overpowered right now, something that hasn't been seen in a long time, they can do anything that destro can do but better, usually x2 times better as I have posted some examples above. You haven't "proved" anything else besides what you believe in your display of mental contortions.

City siege protection numbers? Where is BG? Where are all the other tanks? When do you see a BG above a BO, Chosen or any order tank? When the BG is BiS and the others are anni/conq?

My BG needs waaay less tryhard mode than my IB in 2h spec, specially on small scale and is fun as **** to play.

Has it ever crossed your thoughts that the reason is because it's lacking?

IB is excelent tank and needs minor tweaks to make it more competitive (20 seconds oathfriend buffs and grudge mechanic same as hate).

What's new here? The part where everyone knows that any tank is excelent compared to BG? Or the part where, despite being already overperforming in terms of utility and skill variety, dishonest people still wants "minor tweaks" instead of acknowledging that it's a nerf what it needs, since it's overperforming.

Instead we have people reliant on NB to play IB, attempting to push the merge of IB skills so it can keep the same group utility with less buttons, 100% uptime. All of this while BG is the absolute bottom tank on both sides and it has been like that for waaaaay too long.


Cringe plebbit tier image. And again I have no idea who Dawi is, and quite frankly I couldn't care less. It's not relevant to the discussion.

Ok dude the not reading any of my answers and interpreting anything you want from them i can tollerate, but calling that image (that took me 15 minutes to craft on paint.net) plebbit is going too far, even worse not knowing the meaning of "dawi"

[Auzor]

Let's not overly exaggerate, both sides, m'kay?

The BG +parry, +block, + disrupt tactics:
they all take up a tactic slot.
I continue, to consider the IB's ability to be better:
* it is not tied to hatred/grudge level; fixed +25 (for costing 15 hatred/grudges)
* it comes with initiative bonus
* it does not require an enemy target either
* the shatter the buff argument: it.has.no.cooldown.
* it applies to your oathfriend!!
* it does not require a tactic slot.

The + block tactic: IB's is better, even at 100% hatred.
The disrupt tactic is high up in the third tree, and order is the side that has 2 *ballistic* Rdps classes.

There are 3 tanks in game, that I consider to be in a good-very good place:
Chosen, IB & KotBS.
That is SnB mostly.
Chosen may have an advantage, as he has an ability granting parry, and then a tactic increasing parry on a block, plus morale tactic, - crit chance to the group tactic, the Aura's of course..
IB's: the Oathfriend +25% parry buff for oathfriend alone is amazing.
Their block tactic: -5% to all damage taken.


------------------------------------------------------------

On the other hand, let's not exaggerate:
Order tanks are not twice as good as destro's.
SM's have Whirling Wind, yes. Take that away and... everyone's bringing IB's & KotBS's again probably.
SM does have nice bubbles, I am an advocate of 'Racking Talons' tactic for AoE -20% dmg debuff, and for 2-handed they have a channel that is the same as the +block channel BO/BG get, but *better*.
Oh, Spirit dmg. How's that for the 'heavy armor meta'.
Their mechanic is not that fun, for either BO nor SM imo; and they really should baseline have things like Snares not needing improved stance. Also, for being 'Perfect Stance', many of the abilities aren't all that strong; or very short in duration.
Both could use a buff to the top tank tree ability imo.


BG 2-handed is a crit buff monkey.

SnB: I'm not a fan of the +block channel at all. Imo, a considerable amount of the time you'd be running that, you should be running 'Hold the Line'. It is superior for melee, for self-protection. As if BG needed to be any more selfish. Once again: 30s cooldown. 2h SM gets a better ability: no cooldown, and Dodge & Disrupt work 360°; Block only 180°... vs BO: no self-snare.
BG does have the Howl, to reduce enemy parry.... but see 'Oathbound', it's needed if any Order Mdps can be at +25% parry. It's also 30 hatred, so this + rage shield =45 hatred gone in 2 abilities.
BG shield bubble is better than IB's, in also protecting vs non-magic dmg... but it's for naught, when SM & BO bubble everyone in the party. (BO has best range, but weakest shield).
"Elite Training" applies to Dark Protector, unlike the Oathstone for IB. But, doesn't work vs ballistic.
The Knockdown & Knockback are nice; but once again tied to your Hatred.