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Some Black Guard suggestions for BG Tank

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Auzor
Posts: 36

Some Black Guard suggestions for BG Tank

Post#1 » Mon May 17, 2021 8:48 pm

Howdy

New player, actually first post on this forum, still checking things out. One of my characters is a Black Guard. I can't help but notice that it's tanking tree is somewhat.. lacking vs others.
I love theorycrafting....

Suggestions:
[*] Terrifying Foe (first tactic in the tanking tree): make the + toughness buff, also apply to your dark protector. (perhaps this sharing part is conditional; if you are wearing a shield?)

compared to KotBS or Chosen, these tanks offer AoE buffs/debuffs. BG & IB mostly buff 1 single teammate. This still takes up a tactics slot, and the toughness bonus isn't all that strong either imo.
Suppose you are at 1000 toughness. ooh, with 90 hate, you get boosted to 1450. That extra 450 toughness, afaik, reduces the damage of each hit, by 90 (do correct me if I'm wrong). BEFORE resistances/armor. Your DPS or healer 'dark protector' won't be at 1k toughness most likely. It also requires you to be within melee range and use a global cooldown & some action points on 'Hateful Strike'. Still, it would provide some damage reduction vs dots.

Further, it would be nice to see greater granularity in the + toughness boost. Suppose it gave +0.5% toughness per hate. Would this be broken? Or, +5% toughness per 10 hate.

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[*]None Shall pass : not a channeled ability. Lower the +block bonus, in favor of adding damage reduction to self, and your guarded target? For 10s +20% block, and your guarded target & you, take only 80% damage. Each time you block, build 5 hate, deal damage back, but also drain 5? 10? action points. 50 action points to cast?

a channeled ability? seriously?
BG does not have a pure, 100% reliable, % damage reduction. IB can take two tactics, 'seasoned veteran' to take 85% damage for 5s after a block (I recon this can have a pretty high up-time), or their +block tactic in stone tree, for permanent 95% damage taken. KotBS has an amazing 50% damage reduction skill (of course, at the top of the tree, and yes, it requires a shield and has a cooldown too).
(making this work on your guarded instead of dark protector target is purely to be a bit different. )
Not being a channeled ability, offering reliable damage reduction, including to 1 other player, is worth losing a lot of the block chance for imo.
'only' being 20%, with a 30s cooldown: it is the first ability on the tree after all...
even so, if it is indeed changed to affect an ally (whether your guarded target, or your dark protector), it could be moved to the second ability place in the tree.

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[*] Spiteful slam Make it require a shield, but also make it possible to be triggered from a parry.

That's also how it is in the IB's case btw...
BG does not have a huge amount of block chance, and I just removed some more technically.

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[*]Anger drives me +2% parry AND dodge per 10 hatred

Order has 2 ranged dps classes that deal non-magical damage. Seems strange how they are left out imo.
Also up to +30% parry seemed a bit strong to me; i.e. inviting for 2h DPS.

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[*] Wave of Scorn reduce the AP cost.
30 AP seems plenty. IB's is 25 and a full AoE, plus dmg scaling with grudges.
(but IB builds grudge less easy, and is a different class)
Another option would be to keep the AP cost, but add some bonus effect...

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[*]Shielded by hate Your block chance is increased by 10%. Anytime you block an attack, there is a 10% +5% per 10 hatred chance, that you'll remove 1 curse/hex/ailment from yourself & your dark protector, once every 3 seconds.
So, at 50 hatred: 35% chance that when you block, you'll remove a debuff.

This tactic deserved a buff.
Could even include a heal effect when the cleanse happens.
The BG's block tactic is pretty high up in the shield tree. BG does not have a whole lot of other +block buffs. (if you have a lot of +block, adding even more +block becomes all the better, as it removes a larger % of the attacks that you don't block)
The cleansing effect could be limited, it doesn't have to be curse/hex/ailment; it could be 2/3 etc.

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[*] Force of FuryMake it cost hatred, have it both reduce chance of being critically hit, and damage taken from a crit, and make it buff nearby allies, and lower the cooldown.

Path of Loathing is the only tree, for both BG & IB, that has no ability in it costing hatred/grudges. (in fact, ALL of the IB's abilities inside the tree's, either use grudge, or scale with it)
Force of Fury can also be made into the BG's tank 'group buff'.

Costs 40 Hatred (the highest cost of any IB or BG ability).
+ armor: as is.
Reduces your chance to be critically hit, and the damage you take from crits, based on your Hatred. Your dark protector is also affected etc.
Per 10 Hate, -3%.
(currently: at 60 hate: -30% less likely to be crit. Proposed: -18%, and also takes -18% less bonus damage from attacks that DO crit)
In addition all allies within 30 feet of you or your dark protector, gain 50 action points, 50 morale and +10% damage on their next critical hit within 10s.
10s cooldown.

So you could use this as a pseudo KotBS aura effect. But it costs 40 hatred, and don't you have other abilities you want to spend it on?
If it is too weak, reduce the hatred cost, or buff the % vs crit chance & crit damage. If too strong, reduce the action & morale amount.

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Path of Loathing:

[*]Elite training just include 'dodge' in addition to parry & interrupt.

it just bothers me that BG has little affecting non-magic ranged, when order has 2 such classes, vs 1 on destro...

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My apologies for the wall of text...

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Amdus
Posts: 28

Re: Some Black Guard suggestions for BG Tank

Post#2 » Tue May 18, 2021 6:14 am

Quite a long read, I don't agree with some since I think it would be overpowered, though I agree that BG needs an emergency rework. I'll perhaps make a post myself in this thread...

Wanted to comment on this particular thing you have said, because I think it's extremely relevant:

Auzor wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 8:48 pm

Path of Loathing is the only tree, for both BG & IB, that has no ability in it costing hatred/grudges. (in fact, ALL of the IB's abilities inside the tree's, either use grudge, or scale with it)
Pic related:


Image

I picked the 2 abilities in the first tree of both classes, that are the same. But there are slight differences, try to spot them.

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Earthcake
Posts: 157

Re: Some Black Guard suggestions for BG Tank

Post#3 » Tue May 18, 2021 7:11 am

I do not play BG.

But from what I see, you make it sounds like +450 stats is bad. I mean, come on lol, I would take that on ANY character if I could.
I wld actually use it so I get tough soft cap with only 605 base toughness [(605+120buff)x1.45]=1051 but you just cannot say +450 stats is bad.
DPS classes got +240 AND -120 to another one to compensate cause +240 would be too op, yet you think +450 is bad.

Also make it sounds like the best st KD in the game is bad.

And that 2h IB is superior to 2h BG. Maybe in 2v2 yes, otherwise never, how many times do you see a wb LF 2h IB ?

And that BG got no reliable damage reduction%. What about Force of Fury ?

I really have to play a BG to see if I change my mind, but I do not think any of this is deserved.

Auzor
Posts: 36

Re: Some Black Guard suggestions for BG Tank

Post#4 » Tue May 18, 2021 7:34 am

Amdus wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 6:14 am
Quite a long read, I don't agree with some since I think it would be overpowered, though I agree that BG needs an emergency rework. I'll perhaps make a post myself in this thread...

Wanted to comment on this particular thing you have said, because I think it's extremely relevant:

Auzor wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 8:48 pm

Path of Loathing is the only tree, for both BG & IB, that has no ability in it costing hatred/grudges. (in fact, ALL of the IB's abilities inside the tree's, either use grudge, or scale with it)
Pic related:


Image

I picked the 2 abilities in the first tree of both classes, that are the same. But there are slight differences, try to spot them.
Some changes, or all combined, could indeed be overpowered. I am however, only proposing changes related to 'durability'; particularly the tanking tree itself.
As I mention on the first tactic, KotBS/Chosen provide AoE buffs/debuffs, to anyone within range.
Black Guard (and IB) have their 'Dark Protector' mechanic. I sought to make a BG 'tank' offer more than currently, to their Dark Protector, to make it into an excellent 'bodyguard' (whilst still also having strong survivability bonuses to itself), especially when wearing a shield.

As for the image:
yes there are differences between them, I was specifically speaking about the Loathing tree not having 'costs Hatred' abilities.
Differences between them are pretty obvious I think?

First one: BG +5 AP/second, crits give hatred. IB crit chance scales with grudges. The IB one does require a Great Weapon.
Overall, slight BG win I recon (IB tends to produce less grudges than BG does hatred, so I'd think any IB would be willing to trade. Also, the BG one can be used with sword & shield if this tooltip is correct).

The second one I consider as equal tbh.
One deals direct dmg, the other has a DoT scaling with grudges. (then there's hex vs curse)
The point of a knockdown is not the dmg it does imo, I'd be perfectly fine with swapping them out I think.

Auzor
Posts: 36

Re: Some Black Guard suggestions for BG Tank

Post#5 » Tue May 18, 2021 8:11 am

Earthcake wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 7:11 am
I do not play BG.

But from what I see, you make it sounds like +450 stats is bad. I mean, come on lol, I would take that on ANY character if I could.
I wld actually use it so I get tough soft cap with only 605 base toughness [(605+120buff)x1.45]=1051 but you just cannot say +450 stats is bad.
DPS classes got +240 AND -120 to another one to compensate cause +240 would be too op, yet you think +450 is bad.

Also make it sounds like the best st KD in the game is bad.

And that 2h IB is superior to 2h BG. Maybe in 2v2 yes, otherwise never, how many times do you see a wb LF 2h IB ?

And that BG got no reliable damage reduction%. What about Force of Fury ?

I really have to play a BG to see if I change my mind, but I do not think any of this is deserved.
+450 stats:
ah, but it doesn't give +450 stats. ;)
And sure, +450 stats is nice. But wouldn't you rather have +450 of nearly any other stat?

You'd need to be at 1000 toughness (toughness stacking?? eeeeh....), within melee range, using a pretty weak attack, AND at 90 hatred to get that.

In your (imo) more realistic scenario, you get a bonus (again, requiring a melee attack, and 90 hatred), of 326. (I frankly think the tank's standard +160 toughness tactic, could be doubled)
What if you're at 'only' 60 hatred, or just below 90? 217,5 bonus toughness.
How much will this actually reduce the damage by of hits you take?

Then you have my proposal of having it also buff your dark protector. What toughness is your average healer or DPS at?
I recon often he'd see more benefit, from your dmg shield ability.... in the third tree.

Frankly, I see this as mostly good vs DoT effects.

Lastly: all this +toughness, won't do anything, vs a morale dump.


------------------------------------------------

2h IB vs 2h BG: please do point me to where I compared 2handed ones...
I didn't afaik.
I'm speaking specifically, about the tank, and abilities changes I propose are related to Sword & Shield BG.

Best KnockBack in the game: on the one hand, on the other.
The knockback distance is long, but it only triggers of a block (BG doesn't get a lot of +block), and it has a 20s cooldown, vs 10s for the IB.
IB can trigger of block OR parry, and IB gets a permanent uptime +25% parry ability for himself & oathfriend in the tanking tree.
I'd trade both the BG's +Parry tactic, AND the current 'none shall pass' ability for that in a heartbeat.



BG & no reliable damage reduction %:
Force of Fury is chance-based, relying on Hatred level, the 100% reliable part only works via buffing your armor (which can face armor ignores). No buffs to resistances.
Compare this to KotBS 'Vigilance' ability, of taking 50% dmg from all sources.
I also compared it to IB's tactics options, reducing ALL damage taken, although by a smaller amount.

Compared in a vacuum, IB vs BG, first tank tree ability:
IB can maintain +25% Parry & an initiative bonus to himself & his oathfriend. No extra tactics needed. It doesn't even require a shield...
BG's first 'tank' ability, would have a +20% block, only to self, and 'take 20% less dmg from anywhere' to self & your dark protector. But, an uptime of 1/3rd the time: 10s duration, 30s cooldown. Of course it is far stronger than what is currently there for the BG... current 'None shall pass' is a waste of an ability point imo.
15 grudge, vs 50 action points and some more action points drained when you block...

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Amdus
Posts: 28

Re: Some Black Guard suggestions for BG Tank

Post#6 » Tue May 18, 2021 8:29 am

Auzor wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 7:34 am

Some changes, or all combined, could indeed be overpowered. I am however, only proposing changes related to 'durability'; particularly the tanking tree itself.
As I mention on the first tactic, KotBS/Chosen provide AoE buffs/debuffs, to anyone within range.
Black Guard (and IB) have their 'Dark Protector' mechanic. I sought to make a BG 'tank' offer more than currently, to their Dark Protector, to make it into an excellent 'bodyguard' (whilst still also having strong survivability bonuses to itself), especially when wearing a shield.
It's complicated. BG is "supposed" to be a debuffer, which clearly isn't working if you have to debuff 24 people 1 by 1 while an IB buffs all of them in 1 hit. So, I'm not sure if not offering more benefits to the dark protector is the issue.

Auzor wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 7:34 am

As for the image:
yes there are differences between them, I was specifically speaking about the Loathing tree not having 'costs Hatred' abilities.
Differences between them are pretty obvious I think?

First one: BG +5 AP/second, crits give hatred. IB crit chance scales with grudges. The IB one does require a Great Weapon.
Overall, slight BG win I recon (IB tends to produce less grudges than BG does hatred, so I'd think any IB would be willing to trade. Also, the BG one can be used with sword & shield if this tooltip is correct).

The second one I consider as equal tbh.
One deals direct dmg, the other has a DoT scaling with grudges. (then there's hex vs curse)
The point of a knockdown is not the dmg it does imo, I'd be perfectly fine with swapping them out I think.
I gave the example of the first tree, I could have done it with the remaining trees, it's the same situation.

Auzor wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 7:34 am

The point of a knockdown is not the dmg it does imo, I'd be perfectly fine with swapping them out I think.
It's not a matter of opinion or preferences, it's a matter of balance, and there's obviously an imbalance favouring the IB. In many situations, damage is important (Okay, in all situations).

nocturnalguest
Posts: 211

Re: Some Black Guard suggestions for BG Tank

Post#7 » Tue May 18, 2021 8:31 am

Man, get out of t1 before you gonna drop another wall of text
Theorycrafting could be entertaining, but this not the case.
In current game state SnB BG is non-disputable best turtle tank, altho in general scheme of things it matters not cause game mechanic has almost no space for such playstyle (e.g. PuG SC flag holding, cause any kind of organized group will still kill you no matter what).
All of your proposals are clearly showing you have no real game knowledge and just compare abilities in builder. Thats not how you do balance proposals.

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Amdus
Posts: 28

Re: Some Black Guard suggestions for BG Tank

Post#8 » Tue May 18, 2021 8:54 am

nocturnalguest wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 8:31 am
All of your proposals are clearly showing you have no real game knowledge and just compare abilities in builder. Thats not how you do balance proposals.
If you don't make proposals based on real numbers and class mechanics, how do you make them? Out of anecdotal situations?

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tazdingo
Posts: 752

Re: Some Black Guard suggestions for BG Tank

Post#9 » Tue May 18, 2021 10:51 am

terrifying foe is fine don't touch it

none shall pass will always be clumsy with the 30 sec cd, no ap drain or anything will fix that and will just over-complicate things. i would prefer tactic that removes cd but adds slow to give parity with bo. bo can keep chm up indefinitely with shdr + da greenest so only fair bg who can use driven by hate has to run tactic too

block is fine for kd at higher levels, you can grab a block with nsp in a pinch. too class defining to change imo

30% is a lot but again sort of defining for bg, if ur at full hate you get slightly more than other tanks with their average of 25%. tanks don't get dodge tactics cause tanks don't care about prdps

wave of scorn honestly none issue thanks to driven by hate and elite training also ap feeds now, seems like such a pointless change

shielded by hate, seems way op in the way you describe but i like the idea of bg self cleanse. this could go on fof which afaik multiplies your "reduced chance to be critically hit" instead of your flat "chance to be critically hit" and so is pretty weak. could be something like "on avoidance you cleanse your dark protectee with x second icd" to further define snb bg role as a bodyguard

elite training 100% no you never wanna throw it away on a dodge, you wanna use it when you anticipate a punt or alongside endless pursuit to grab a disrupt for speedwagon

don't mean to trash ur ideas i think some were interesting but generally way op or unnecessary

sergteo
Posts: 17

Re: Some Black Guard suggestions for BG Tank

Post#10 » Tue May 18, 2021 11:15 am

Amdus wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 6:14 am
Quite a long read, I don't agree with some since I think it would be overpowered, though I agree that BG needs an emergency rework. I'll perhaps make a post myself in this thread...

Wanted to comment on this particular thing you have said, because I think it's extremely relevant:

Auzor wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 8:48 pm

Path of Loathing is the only tree, for both BG & IB, that has no ability in it costing hatred/grudges. (in fact, ALL of the IB's abilities inside the tree's, either use grudge, or scale with it)
Pic related:


Image

I picked the 2 abilities in the first tree of both classes, that are the same. But there are slight differences, try to spot them.
You are joking right? If this is your argument why IB is "better" than BG it's either a bad attempt of trolling or just you complaining for the sake of complaining, dude.
Like, you know that ironbreaker needs grudges to make BOTH the skills that you've posted somewhat viable in terms of damage? And that blackguard has easier time to get these resources that make the annoying mechanic actually somewhat of a buff. Blackguard is a very complete tank, perhaps falls lil bit short in SnB spec, but its way more viable in 2h and hybrid specs than IB and much more useful to the group overall in said spec, appart from having somewhat the same damage (actually i think it has more raw damage but less burst potential due to some nasty aoe skills that can help with aoe pressure).

Ironbreaker needs a lot of attention, not saying is a bad tank but definitely needs a tunning, specially in how their mechanic works and revamping some useless tactics. It's a very dedicated (rr85+ myself) class and needs the right hands: it's window for mistakes is extremely low, due to the ammount of task you have to perform in a short ammount of time and the way you have to think every global cooldown.

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