Black Orc Rework

[Duukar]

1.I propose a tactic that takes the AOE punt and turns it to a long ST punt. This will open up Ranked play and ST city group play at the cost of a precious tactic slot.

-----I propose the snare on Big Brawlin be returned to 40% with no cool down added.. This is a Lynch pin to the new Blork..

2.I propose the duration of Wez bigger be increased to 5 seconds and the cool down increased to 25 or 30 sseconds.. This makes Wez Bigger Much more useful at the cost of a longer cool down. I havent met a single Blork who runs Wez Bigger as it is or thinks its good.

3.The new Wahhhgg tactic should be a smaller group armor buff(200-300?) that stacks with pots .. 5 secs up with 20 sec CD

Make choices, pick a line and go up with Big Brawling as the basis for why to bring a Blork and the flavor from Wez Bigger for more ST group focus or Wahhhgg for more Blob group focus..

The tactic to give Long ST punt makes ranked play and 2H play more viable.

[starness88]

Spoiler:

"BO's have a group resistance buff on being hit, SM's don't." => Does not stack with choosen aura and it's a chance to proc on being hit
"BO's have a silence and ST cooldown increaser, SM's don't." => SM had a silence and ask to delete it. CD increaser is monotarget with 20sec it doesn't add much thing in wb
"BO's have the highest burst damage of all the tanks." => A good one but clealy not the highest, SM can do better in 2h with spiritual damage and 2 spell cast interupt
"BO's have a AoE snare with no cooldown, SM's don't." => 20% snare, it's totally ignored when you play it.
"BO's have one of the best offensive morales for warband or small scale fights with their m3." => That's true i agree with that but moral charge has been nerf.
"BO's can reduce incoming magic damage for party by hitting any target, no cooldown, SM's can't." => We are in melee meta, the magic debuf is 4 sec only on a third posture ability, while this time SM has an ability that can do the same and reduce ALL DAMAGE and not only the magic one§.
"BO's AoE snare can increases build up time and debuffs strength all with one ability." => Choosen aura do more so this tactic has no real impact except if we think 20% snare is strong.

Spoiler:

it's not

"BO's still have a morale pump, SM's don't." =>I Agree but moral pump has been nerfed
"BO's can with one ability buff auto attack damage of group and have a ln AoE corporeal debuff to boost Sorc damage significantly if the targets don't have their resistances buffed." => AA make good damage in ST but it's a bit anecdotic in aoe. In ST you want to run with a 2H buid and it mean sacrify many talent point to reach the waaagh.
"SM's don't have a ST punt either with 2H, it has to be with a shield and requires block and is on a 20 second cooldown, and shield isn't much use for six man's. For the BO the same part of the mastery tree they get their block channel." => A ST punt is interesting to punt a guard, so it mean ST group oriented, it mean ST 2h build for the BO, it mean that you won't invest 11 pt in the middle tree.

And if you don't have a chosen in the party, BO is the next best thing against magical damage. Better than the SM's version.

The ST cooldown increaser is still strong in warband vs warband play since it has 50% uptime. It's 5 seconds longer than the IB's version.

BO's get a core 25% crit damage bonus tactic, unique to them compared to all other tanks. That's why they can hit the hardest.

Not sure how 20% snare is ignored easily. Constant snare of any % is one of the most annoying parts of RvR. It's makes it harder to escape or even keep up in range of my guard.

The SM has to run over to a Sorc/Magus and ST them with the damage debuff to work or if all the Sorcs/Magus' are somehow within 15ft when using Raking Talons. BO's version has a better benefit for group utility because it protects the group from magic damage and all they need to do it hit anything nearby. BO's at least get 50% uptime on their physical damage reduction ability on ST's, plus the AoE strength debuff to help as well.

BO's still have the group bubble and usually higher block than other tanks which takes tremendous stress off your healers.

Still plenty to contribute to the warband.

We nearly always have a choosen. And the buff is still a proc, so you can dont have the needed buff when it's needed. So

ST cooldown increaser is ok, but it's not a reason to bring a black ork.

25% crit bonus give us some damage but we still hit less than our mirror SM but to be honest if i want dps i play a dps so i dont care about SM damage (mostly spiritual btw)

SM has a tactic that can apply the damage debuff in aoe and it's still debuff all damage : physical, magic, corporal, elem and spirit. You're welcome for the tips. Bo's is still a magic damage reduc in a physical damage meta. The only order that bring magic is BW and after it's AM, and we clealy dont care about AM dps in wb.

SM has a bubble too.

[Detangler]

Topping protection charts ain't big deal on BO. Topping dps charts, however, says more about his dps companions than his build.

He did more damage than everyone except 3 of our DPS. And there was plenty of damage/kills going around on our side. Nice try, though!

[detrap]

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

"BO's have a group resistance buff on being hit, SM's don't." => Does not stack with choosen aura and it's a chance to proc on being hit
"BO's have a silence and ST cooldown increaser, SM's don't." => SM had a silence and ask to delete it. CD increaser is monotarget with 20sec it doesn't add much thing in wb
"BO's have the highest burst damage of all the tanks." => A good one but clealy not the highest, SM can do better in 2h with spiritual damage and 2 spell cast interupt
"BO's have a AoE snare with no cooldown, SM's don't." => 20% snare, it's totally ignored when you play it.
"BO's have one of the best offensive morales for warband or small scale fights with their m3." => That's true i agree with that but moral charge has been nerf.
"BO's can reduce incoming magic damage for party by hitting any target, no cooldown, SM's can't." => We are in melee meta, the magic debuf is 4 sec only on a third posture ability, while this time SM has an ability that can do the same and reduce ALL DAMAGE and not only the magic one§.
"BO's AoE snare can increases build up time and debuffs strength all with one ability." => Choosen aura do more so this tactic has no real impact except if we think 20% snare is strong.

Spoiler:

it's not

"BO's still have a morale pump, SM's don't." =>I Agree but moral pump has been nerfed
"BO's can with one ability buff auto attack damage of group and have a ln AoE corporeal debuff to boost Sorc damage significantly if the targets don't have their resistances buffed." => AA make good damage in ST but it's a bit anecdotic in aoe. In ST you want to run with a 2H buid and it mean sacrify many talent point to reach the waaagh.
"SM's don't have a ST punt either with 2H, it has to be with a shield and requires block and is on a 20 second cooldown, and shield isn't much use for six man's. For the BO the same part of the mastery tree they get their block channel." => A ST punt is interesting to punt a guard, so it mean ST group oriented, it mean ST 2h build for the BO, it mean that you won't invest 11 pt in the middle tree.

And if you don't have a chosen in the party, BO is the next best thing against magical damage. Better than the SM's version.

The ST cooldown increaser is still strong in warband vs warband play since it has 50% uptime. It's 5 seconds longer than the IB's version.

BO's get a core 25% crit damage bonus tactic, unique to them compared to all other tanks. That's why they can hit the hardest.

Not sure how 20% snare is ignored easily. Constant snare of any % is one of the most annoying parts of RvR. It's makes it harder to escape or even keep up in range of my guard.

The SM has to run over to a Sorc/Magus and ST them with the damage debuff to work or if all the Sorcs/Magus' are somehow within 15ft when using Raking Talons. BO's version has a better benefit for group utility because it protects the group from magic damage and all they need to do it hit anything nearby. BO's at least get 50% uptime on their physical damage reduction ability on ST's, plus the AoE strength debuff to help as well.

BO's still have the group bubble and usually higher block than other tanks which takes tremendous stress off your healers.

Still plenty to contribute to the warband.

We nearly always have a choosen. And the buff is still a proc, so you can dont have the needed buff when it's needed. So

ST cooldown increaser is ok, but it's not a reason to bring a black ork.

25% crit bonus give us some damage but we still hit less than our mirror SM but to be honest if i want dps i play a dps so i dont care about SM damage (mostly spiritual btw)

SM has a tactic that can apply the damage debuff in aoe and it's still debuff all damage : physical, magic, corporal, elem and spirit. You're welcome for the tips. Bo's is still a magic damage reduc in a physical damage meta. The only order that bring magic is BW and after it's AM, and we clealy dont care about AM dps in wb.

SM has a bubble too.

The comparison was with a SM for resis buff, if you have a Chosen in your party, you use stat steal because Chosen can't. You bring wounds buff because Chosen can't.

The cooldown increaser is huge. It counters CDR from SM's for the entire duration. Try doing anything productive when you have been hit with it. If a warband brings an EoV AM with SM combo to city, the ability will be useful in putting EoV spam to bed.

This crit damage tactic makes BO's have more burst damage because SM doesn't have one, it doesn't make sense that a SM hits harder when the BO does an extra 25% crit damage on top of what the SM or Chosen can do.

Maybe it's still a reason then to bring more than one BO to help contain melee damage since its a ST ability, as well as still being able to contain magical damage for the party. Since the Chosen can't do the same or do it as well.

Chosen's can't shatter rampage.

Chosen's don't have Skull Thumper.

BO's m3 is still the best tank m3 in the game and still easy to obtain since the morale nerfs. Although I'm yet to test it stacking +morale gear. Chosen's are stuck with raze.

Chosen doesn't have block channel or group bubble. There is more stress on the healers when there isn't a BO supporting the party. I don't see an overwhelming reason why having two Chosens in a party is better than having at least one BO in the mix.

[zgolec]

Spoiler:

Black orks have been guttted and require a complete rework.

You took WAHHGGGG away, buffed it, and gave it to SMs. Thats our mirror.

I spent 100s and 100s and 100s of hours grinding out BiS for SnB and 2h on my Blork...

It would be REALLY nice if you guys would redefine the class identity since we no longer have WAHHHHHGGGG or the best Morale pump.. What exact role should we fill in WB play or Ranked play or Small man play?

The other tanks do everything we can do, but better.

We have no LOOONNNG range punt... have fun with ranked play...
We have no CDR.... But out mirror does paired with an aoe interrupt ON DEMAND...
We have no improved morale pump.. Chosen have the same now....

We have a WS buff...

We dont have a spot in the single target group in City.. we Dont have a spot in the AoE groups in city.. 2 chosen is WAY better.. or even a chosen and a BG...
We cant excel at ranked play because we lack a reasonable punt. Small man makes WAY more sense to bring a Chosen and BG....

We need new 12 point abilities on the center and right tree.. we need to abilities in the 5 slot and the 9 slot.. really we have nothing useful anymore.. just a WS buff...

BO's have a group resistance buff on being hit, SM's don't.
BO's have a silence and ST cooldown increaser, SM's don't.
BO's have the highest burst damage of all the tanks.
BO's have a AoE snare with no cooldown, SM's don't.
BO's have one of the best offensive morales for warband or small scale fights with their m3.
BO's can reduce incoming magic damage for party by hitting any target, no cooldown, SM's can't.
BO's AoE snare can increases build up time and debuffs strength all with one ability.
BO's still have a morale pump, SM's don't.
BO's can with one ability buff auto attack damage of group and have a ln AoE corporeal debuff to boost Sorc damage significantly if the targets don't have their resistances buffed.

SM's don't have a ST punt either with 2H, it has to be with a shield and requires block and is on a 20 second cooldown, and shield isn't much use for six man's. For the BO the same part of the mastery tree they get their block channel.

Hope it helps.

You forgot about: BO got 50% block on demand. SM don't :p
Here are some things I can think of.

[Powell]

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Black orks have been guttted and require a complete rework.

You took WAHHGGGG away, buffed it, and gave it to SMs. Thats our mirror.

I spent 100s and 100s and 100s of hours grinding out BiS for SnB and 2h on my Blork...

It would be REALLY nice if you guys would redefine the class identity since we no longer have WAHHHHHGGGG or the best Morale pump.. What exact role should we fill in WB play or Ranked play or Small man play?

The other tanks do everything we can do, but better.

We have no LOOONNNG range punt... have fun with ranked play...
We have no CDR.... But out mirror does paired with an aoe interrupt ON DEMAND...
We have no improved morale pump.. Chosen have the same now....

We have a WS buff...

We dont have a spot in the single target group in City.. we Dont have a spot in the AoE groups in city.. 2 chosen is WAY better.. or even a chosen and a BG...
We cant excel at ranked play because we lack a reasonable punt. Small man makes WAY more sense to bring a Chosen and BG....

We need new 12 point abilities on the center and right tree.. we need to abilities in the 5 slot and the 9 slot.. really we have nothing useful anymore.. just a WS buff...

BO's have a group resistance buff on being hit, SM's don't.
BO's have a silence and ST cooldown increaser, SM's don't.
BO's have the highest burst damage of all the tanks.
BO's have a AoE snare with no cooldown, SM's don't.
BO's have one of the best offensive morales for warband or small scale fights with their m3.
BO's can reduce incoming magic damage for party by hitting any target, no cooldown, SM's can't.
BO's AoE snare can increases build up time and debuffs strength all with one ability.
BO's still have a morale pump, SM's don't.
BO's can with one ability buff auto attack damage of group and have a ln AoE corporeal debuff to boost Sorc damage significantly if the targets don't have their resistances buffed.

SM's don't have a ST punt either with 2H, it has to be with a shield and requires block and is on a 20 second cooldown, and shield isn't much use for six man's. For the BO the same part of the mastery tree they get their block channel.

Hope it helps.

You forgot about: BO got 50% block on demand. SM don't :p
Here are some things I can think of.

To be fair SM, nor any other tank on Order has to deal with Rampage. Making that 50% block channel when called for "channeling" , or even morale drops (which have been normalized in this patch per side) in wb vs wb play, useless.

[detrap]

To be fair SM, nor any other tank on Order has to deal with Rampage. Making that 50% block channel when called for "channeling" , or even morale drops (which have been normalized in this patch per side) in wb vs wb play, useless.

Yes that's why I think it's part of the reason to why destro tanks have two block channel abilities and order have zero. To help deal with the defendable attacks on top of rampage. Also if your healers don't need to heal you then it means more heals/cross heals/rez's on someone that needs it. It's not useless. It's one of my favourite abilities on the BO/BG.

[starness88]

50% block with channeling is a good ability but SM has passive defense buff so it's even. And above of all of this, SM don't have to deal with rampage.

And this spell does not bring anythin to my group. And making an organised wb is about to use a synergy. BO don't bring synergy anymore.

You can't take all the spell and tactic of your mastery trees. You have to do choice. ATM no choice is worth to bring.

[detrap]

50% block with channeling is a good ability but SM has passive defense buff so it's even. And above of all of this, SM don't have to deal with rampage.

And this spell does not bring anythin to my group. And making an organised wb is about to use a synergy. BO don't bring synergy anymore.

You can't take all the spell and tactic of your mastery trees. You have to do choice. ATM no choice is worth to bring.

It's not even close, SM has 50-60% block in decent gear but BO can have 90% or higher. It does a lot to support your group when you can utilise the guard mechanic to your favour in warband activity. If you still don't think BO's bring synergy any more just read over my previous points. If you think Waaagh! isn't worth using because you have based the entire class on one tactic, try playing around with We'z Bigger, it can be a strong ability when used correctly.

I don't think a shortage of mastery points is an issue. You have enough, even at higher renown.

Side note: SM's do have their own channel to mirror the BO's that can give us 100% parry (200% with a tactic) but it's restricted to 2H, phasing out our ST punt and AoE interrupt. So it's a rare sight to see one defensively built floating around.

[starness88]

50% block with channeling is a good ability but SM has passive defense buff so it's even. And above of all of this, SM don't have to deal with rampage.

And this spell does not bring anythin to my group. And making an organised wb is about to use a synergy. BO don't bring synergy anymore.

You can't take all the spell and tactic of your mastery trees. You have to do choice. ATM no choice is worth to bring.

It's not even close, SM has 50-60% block in decent gear but BO can have 90% or higher. It does a lot to support your group when you can utilise the guard mechanic to your favour in warband activity. If you still don't think BO's bring synergy any more just read over my previous points. If you think Waaagh! isn't worth using because you have based the entire class on one tactic, try playing around with We'z Bigger, it can be a strong ability when used correctly.

I don't think a shortage of mastery points is an issue. You have enough, even at higher renown.

Side note: SM's do have their own channel to mirror the BO's that can give us 100% parry (200% with a tactic) but it's restricted to 2H, phasing out our ST punt and AoE interrupt. So it's a rare sight to see one defensively built floating around.

You hard overestimate the channeling, it's good, it's true i won't lie. But trust me it, test it and you will that it doesn't bring anything for your mate. When you do this you do nothing else and you snare yourself. But it's still situational, it's not trash.

And you can't say BO has 90% block like it's permanent or passive and SM has only 60%, cause it's situationnal, it's in a moment in a fight. And SM bring far more mitigation to his group. It's not even comparable, we don't have his aoe
break cast, we don't have aoe 20% reduce damage (i know you will tell we reduce magic damage but again, it's useless in a melee meta), that's why i would have less personnal buff ability if i can have group ability.

No one will say : "I have my 3-4 choosen, i have no tank with personnal +50% block on channeling i need BO". The fun part is most order keyboard warriors say "It was no brain, now you are not a waaagh bot anymore", the fact is without the waaagh our gameplay will just be spam aoe to the death. It's more no brain than it was.

Edit : We'z bigger is one build i'm testing cause it give a 10% reduce damage to your group. To be honest 3 sec uptime for 20 sec cd is a big meh. Imo it's not really worst but I didn't try in enough situation to have an real opinion.