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Broadhead Arrow Suggestion.

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ururu
Posts: 17

Re: Broadhead Arrow Suggestion.

Post#71 » Sun Jun 20, 2021 3:07 am

Justina wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:53 pm BHA is anti melee blob. That's the reason you don't like it. Try to find new strategies...
Yeah, like punching a new, bigger door into a fort or something. So easy, why didn't destro thought of that.

One thing that shouldn't be left out of discussion tho, BHA and Spiral are also great tools to apply pierce defense tactic debuff, which is greatly synergizes with Engineer's damage. Fair enough, SH got that tactic too. Well, except that a) rSH has **** all in terms of spammable aoe, hence no application b) Magi and Sorcs get only half of benefit that Engi do.

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BeautfulToad
Posts: 631

Re: Broadhead Arrow Suggestion.

Post#72 » Sun Jun 20, 2021 10:23 pm

Littleone wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:18 pm Image
That's presumably an upper bound to the damage from a very well equipped SW, but if there's infinite stacking, BHA will clearly get a nerf. Melee SH got the same when you could get 2k damage from its farts.

People are setting themselves up for disappointment if they think infinitely stackable aoe dots are not going to get a nerf at some point. Completely agree that it's good to see a SW doing damage, for too long it was a "support dps" but if an aoe ability can do that amount of ST damage in one tick, not sure what the order-only players think the end result will be here.

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mryay
Posts: 111

Re: Broadhead Arrow Suggestion.

Post#73 » Sun Jun 20, 2021 11:51 pm

BeautfulToad wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 10:23 pm
Littleone wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:18 pm Image
That's presumably an upper bound to the damage from a very well equipped SW, but if there's infinite stacking, BHA will clearly get a nerf. Melee SH got the same when you could get 2k damage from its farts.

People are setting themselves up for disappointment if they think infinitely stackable aoe dots are not going to get a nerf at some point. Completely agree that it's good to see a SW doing damage, for too long it was a "support dps" but if an aoe ability can do that amount of ST damage in one tick, not sure what the order-only players think the end result will be here.
Just for the sake of clarifying the picture, the mitigation is, in average, 17.5%. I bet a debuff armor is ongoing (I mean prior to burn armor applied by the WH). I suppose either you got hit by Acid Arrow or you got hit by the Warlord proc.
Now to get 1.4k/1.5k tick the only possible technique is to activate VoN + use steady aim which increases the critical damage by +25% but increases the cast time by 1s flat. Before some random clueless people claim for imbaSWzor or nerf just know that Steady Aim is very crappy skill that lowers DPS in all cirumstances except when a target is fleeing or when you are in the fort and you flee as an SW. The process consists in triggering Steady Aim when Broadhead arrow is in effect, then stopping it when the BHA effect is over (because Steady Aim does auto-nerf the SW. If a dev reads this please change this skill to something else).


Now to answer the original poster: in this state of the game, No I am against nerfing BHA stacking, here is why:
- The design of SW/Skirmish damage fits and works quite well in the grand Open RVR design:
SW does terrible damage to tanks. If you can get above 300 at 3 stacks twice a year.
SW does so so damage to heavy mdps: I am including Marauder, mSH, full Off tanks
SW does punishing damages to light armor and Bersek Choppas
The only exception are WE, because they have a substantial amount of escape/disrupt mechanisms
- Skirmish AoE build operates at 65 feet: this means you are in melee range. Most specifically you are in pull range. Remember that Destro has 3 pull class + Marauder's pull is much reliable/faster than WL pull. Choppa pull put in you insta shred. Fortunatly most Destro doesn't know the value of Rift Magus otherwise Order would be posting day and night about how this CC give a significant advantage to Destro at the moment.
This is not counting AoE KD, Charge, Pounce, AoE Stagger.
- And Skirmish AoE is a light armor stance, meaning you know the SW will not play alone, it is part of a team composition to make it work. A dead SW does not do DPS. When you yolo/solo better go single target SW.

And this leads to another problem, what if SW goes single target and there is a limit applied to BHA stacks? Well, the SW single target would lose GCP by trying to apply the BHA stacks, but this also would be a nerf to Scout, which would be a bigger problem as scout heavily rely on BHA.

Also, remind you again that it is a stack that gets cleansed in 1 action, whereas it could have been 3 different dots that would give the same amount of damage (like DPS Shaman, DPS Archmages, Magus, and Engineers).

Finally, when does "Infinite BHA" occurs? The devil is in the details. It does never occur. The only situations where you can get a significant amount of SW spamming BHA are in Fort P2 attack/defense or P1/P2 Keep attack/defense. But again, the details, when you have a stack of SW, in front you have a stack of Tanks and Healers. Between the uncountable number of dodge and block, and tanks spamming hold the line, and the hot/aoe heals covering for BHA stacks that are being built, the real-life use cases are not so impressive. And again, if you are in range for BHA you are in range for random Magus AoE damage, Mara pull, etc.

The best moment for BHA 3 stacks are in open RVR against WB that is disorganized/not optimized, and yes, the SW is effective in this case within a team that knows how to guard/guard swap.

And this is urban legends: the SW is a full-fledge DPS, not a "support DPS". There are support builds (you can check my post in the Elves section) but is a complete DPS, for the three specs.

The BHA stack is part of a bigger problem. For example, I am not sure that the cancellation of overlapping Pit of shade/Rain of Fire stacks fits into the current design. Maybe they should revert and make them stack like it used to be at the beginning of Age of Reckoning? It used to reduce the zerg where good Sorc/BW was on the battlefields (obiteration was a thing). I don't know, just wondering.

/salute
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RoR: SW 82, AM Heal RR51
AoR: SW R87, BW/R60+, SM/40+, AM/R50+, WL/R60+, Slayer R40+, DoK/SH/Sorcerer R40+ (+others)

AtlasShoved
Posts: 15

Re: Broadhead Arrow Suggestion.

Post#74 » Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:59 am

madrocks wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 2:50 pm The cleansing of BHA in a keep funnel situation is a myth.
We tested with: 2 shamans with cleanse, choppa and 2 shield tanks in the group.
Still BHA stacks constantly.

As other mentenioned in here, it's an issue when 10+ SW drop it in the funnel constantly.
I highly doubt it's a l2p issue.

It's the combination of all the dots in a funnel that make this things "overpowered". Also how the dot mechanic works now, with the refreshment, highly questionable.
Not to forget that destro now needs to slot a choppa, so a squishy class, to have CDR. Totally out of proportion.
You can, in the window of chopfasta, get rid of the 6+ separate stacks of BHA. However this is still 9 seconds or more worth of gcd out of your healer's time that they are not now addressing the actual dps coming from rain and napalm (and melees, come the push). And then, as soon as chopfasta is gone, those 6+stacks are fully built again in 3. If this were an issue of a warband fighting a warband, yes, I would agree dealing with debuffs would be a l2p issue from the healers. But in a funnel, you have no choice but to sit there and eat stacks. Both in offensive and defensive funnels.

The range reduction does not even begin to be sufficient tradeoff for a tactic that effectively reads: '-35% range, Multiply damage of this skill by 'n' '. If it even hits ONE additional target per BHA this tactic reads: BHA does 2x dps per gcd. What other class has a tactic with this level of multiplicative dps increase? I lean heavily towards modifying the functionality (IE: target caps or some other limit) before just shitting on the damage output, and the skill very likely doesn't need a whole lot to nudge it back into the realm of "strong and useful" instead of "insane dps gainz". It was mentioned earlier in the thread that some dots are limited to only the strongest 3 applied working, and that sounds like a reasonable starting point for BHA. Hell, just making it respect LoS (it is an arrow after all) might go a long way toward bringing it in line.
Justina wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:48 am Yeah, that dot is good for killing people without heals, but so is sorc/bw, shaman/am or any other dps class. You seem to be running full glass cannon with -tough tactic.

I can post screenshots where sorcs, WEs, SHs and shamans were killing me in seconds. With the dot you have at least time to take a potion.

The dot is being reduced by armor, toughness, trival blows, futile strikes, deft defender (dodge), ini, guard, absorbs, deaunt and some morals. And it can be removed.

Get trival blows, get deft defender, get a healer and/or guard, use detaunt. Done.

You are running glass cannon without a healer and cry here that you have died to a dot.
Your logic is flawed. You assume a lone SW is what people are complaining about. It's not about one dps being able to blow up another (possible both ways in many 1v1 matchups). If the single SW is able to get these numbers out of a dot, then it just serves as contributing evidence that a tactic that makes that skill an uncapped aoe for a HIGHLY marginal tradeoff in the places where it matters (the funnel) is going to get abused for significant dps gain. Which it does, with as evidence: the last few weeks of fort gameplay. The problem is not one SW using this skill in a warband, it is 6, or 10, or more being able to spam this skill to generate pressure in a blob, completely ignoring the general paradigm that aoe per gcd should do less damage than single target abilities (no damage reduction on the tactic). Like I said above, to keep it unique it might get to be the exception to that rule, and I think gutting the damage is probably NOT the way to go, but it undoubtedly needs some adjustment from it's current state.

AtlasShoved
Posts: 15

Re: Broadhead Arrow Suggestion.

Post#75 » Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:17 am

mryay wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 11:51 pm
Finally, when does "Infinite BHA" occurs? The devil is in the details. It does never occur. The only situations where you can get a significant amount of SW spamming BHA are in Fort P2 attack/defense or P1/P2 Keep attack/defense. But again, the details, when you have a stack of SW, in front you have a stack of Tanks and Healers. Between the uncountable number of dodge and block, and tanks spamming hold the line, and the hot/aoe heals covering for BHA stacks that are being built, the real-life use cases are not so impressive. And again, if you are in range for BHA you are in range for random Magus AoE damage, Mara pull, etc.
This very much does occur, and again, the defenders of this tactic completely strawman where the complaints are aimed at. Also in case you are unaware once a dot "sticks" through defenses it can no longer be mitigated by those defenses. Which means, in the case of forts, you will end up having more than just a single warband's helping of SW firing off BHA with no care to hold the line or anything else. When you are trying to generate pressure on a funnel you just don't care about those casts that get dodged, you can just press it again, and again, and again. SW can also 'peek' fire it by dipping out of LoS while the gcd is rolling, mitigating the hazards of close range.
mryay wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 11:51 pm
The BHA stack is part of a bigger problem. For example, I am not sure that the cancellation of overlapping Pit of shade/Rain of Fire stacks fits into the current design. Maybe they should revert and make them stack like it used to be at the beginning of Age of Reckoning? It used to reduce the zerg where good Sorc/BW was on the battlefields (obiteration was a thing). I don't know, just wondering.
Is your intention that no funnel ever be breakable? Because Infinitely stacking AoE would guarantee a 3star keep is uncrackable, even more so than they already can be once enough bodies are packed inside. You could literally stack enough aoe on one spot to instantly gib anything walking into it, defensive stats or no.

TikumeTikume
Posts: 3

Re: Broadhead Arrow Suggestion.

Post#76 » Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:30 am

The problem is specific:

Infinite stacking of BHA in battlehost type chokepoint defences.

In the open world you can move around it, in smaller scale instances like scenarios and city its not an issue.

Its not a nerf to SW to make it stack 3x3 max, its just a matter of bringing it in line with everyone else. Its a nerf to large scale stacking of one class.

The removal of CD reduction from BOs affected this disproportionally since now to keep up with the cleansing we have to have choppa+shammy to clear a group and thats not feasible in large scale situations.

malmar
Posts: 63

Re: Broadhead Arrow Suggestion.

Post#77 » Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:33 am

Meanwhile SWs keep spamming BHA and adding new stacks.
AtlasShoved wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:59 am You can, in the window of chopfasta, get rid of the 6+ separate stacks of BHA. However this is still 9 seconds or more worth of gcd out of your healer's time that they are not now addressing the actual dps coming from rain and napalm (and melees, come the push). And then, as soon as chopfasta is gone, those 6+stacks are fully built again in 3. If this were an issue of a warband fighting a warband, yes, I would agree dealing with debuffs would be a l2p issue from the healers. But in a funnel, you have no choice but to sit there and eat stacks. Both in offensive and defensive funnels.

malmar
Posts: 63

Re: Broadhead Arrow Suggestion.

Post#78 » Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:35 am

If you dont want to fix BHA - either give more classes aoe cleanse or give shamans aoe cleanse outside party - 20ft area (same as BHA area)

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Caduceus
Posts: 653

Re: Broadhead Arrow Suggestion.

Post#79 » Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:01 am

Backloaded burst is what kills things in RoR, and the amount of backload provided by multiple stacks of BHA is so high it can sometimes melt warbands by on its own; doesn't even need the burst.

I wish I could put it any other way, but anyone with an accurate idea of how things die in RoR has to see something is horribly wrong with how BHA functions.

It needs to be put on a 5 second cooldown, so the application of stacks is slower, healers have a chance to cleanse the DoT. Perhaps more importantly, it would introduce some skill into applying it, because suitable targets need to be found instead of simply spamming BHA on a tank until it gets through. Also, it would require people to come up with actual spell rotations.

There's no reason an ability that powerful should be castable on the move at 65ft (which is a very safe distance in the context of warbands) and have no cooldown.
"I watched a snail crawl along the edge of a straight razor. That's my dream; that's my nightmare. Crawling, slithering, along the edge of a straight razor... and surviving." - Colonel Walter E. Kurtz

Grasthard
Posts: 31

Re: Broadhead Arrow Suggestion.

Post#80 » Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:37 am

it will be nerfed, that's out of the question. the real question is how should it be nerfed?

the main issue is the infinite stacking, and the other one is the aoe. which one should be prioritized in the nerf first?

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