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Broadhead Arrow Suggestion.

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Structured class balance suggestions belong in the Balance Proposal subforum. Class-related discussion in this section are considered as ongoing debates and ARE NOT reviewed for balance changes.
Sever1n
Posts: 48

Re: Broadhead Arrow Suggestion.

Post#81 » Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:43 am

Its llok like destro dont give a crap about what sw players say to them. And it will be constant nerf nerf nerf coz we want it. Fine lets devs diside this. Maybe they also solve problem with stady aim, hunters fervor, swift strikes, and no def mechanism against melle (only selfknock where sh have knockback and movespeed buff for free). If u want to say something about sw plz remember that class have own weakspots and when u brailess spam nerf nerf nerf bfa u dont even realize what that means to 2+sw in city. Whant a rework? Fine. Devs plz give some love to sw so ot can be finally competvi dps in mass battles like chopas maras wl abd slay sork and bw. Oh and proper def tools to counter that WE nigthmare coz tnx for that free jump. (sorry for grammar i have weird bug typing on phone)

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Caduceus
Posts: 319

Re: Broadhead Arrow Suggestion.

Post#82 » Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:50 am

Sever1n wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:43 am

Its llok like destro dont give a crap about what sw players say to them.

That is a cheap way to dismiss any criticism coming from the other faction as biased.

I play SW myself. The reason I started playing it (pre-buff, months ago) was because people said it was weak, and I did not believe them. It was the first class I learned to play properly, because that is what the class required. Without stance-dancing and knowing other classes in and out you were going to get smashed. However, once you learned to properly play the class it was actually quite good in solo, small-scale, ranked SCs and large-scale RvR.

It had issues, yes. Usefulness in city warbands being the main problem, however even back then I argued for giving the SW a group-buffing/debuffing role, since there were already abilities and tactics in place to facilitate that. It clearly would've fit the class identity very well. Sadly, then and now the main information on which DPS classes are balanced is damage done in city warbands, so a damage buff that would completely ignore SW's strengths (mobility, range, control) was pretty much inevitable.

When that patch hit, I stopped playing my SW shortly after. It went from an interesting, high skill-cap class to the abomination that it is now. There were very few people who agreed with me when before the patch I said SW was in many ways fine, and after the patch was completely broken, but it seems the meta has finally caught up.
"I watched a snail crawl along the edge of a straight razor. That's my dream; that's my nightmare. Crawling, slithering, along the edge of a straight razor... and surviving." - Colonel Walter E. Kurtz

Justina
Posts: 29

Re: Broadhead Arrow Suggestion.

Post#83 » Mon Jun 21, 2021 12:23 pm

mryay wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 11:51 pm
Now to answer the original poster: in this state of the game, No I am against nerfing BHA stacking, here is why:
- The design of SW/Skirmish damage fits and works quite well in the grand Open RVR design:
SW does terrible damage to tanks. If you can get above 300 at 3 stacks twice a year.
SW does so so damage to heavy mdps: I am including Marauder, mSH, full Off tanks
SW does punishing damages to light armor and Bersek Choppas
The only exception are WE, because they have a substantial amount of escape/disrupt mechanisms
- Skirmish AoE build operates at 65 feet: this means you are in melee range. Most specifically you are in pull range. Remember that Destro has 3 pull class + Marauder's pull is much reliable/faster than WL pull. Choppa pull put in you insta shred. Fortunatly most Destro doesn't know the value of Rift Magus otherwise Order would be posting day and night about how this CC give a significant advantage to Destro at the moment.
This is not counting AoE KD, Charge, Pounce, AoE Stagger.
- And Skirmish AoE is a light armor stance, meaning you know the SW will not play alone, it is part of a team composition to make it work. A dead SW does not do DPS. When you yolo/solo better go single target SW.
This.

The BHA SW is good in that one situation where you have all people in a small room and then you also need a dozend of SWs to kill them. In any other situation, like open field or scenarios it isn't great at all. The easiest way to get rid of BHA is still to kill the SWs. If you are standing inside a fort with your melee blob and let the SWs spam on you then it's your own fault. Get some ranged dps and fire back. SWs are super squishy.

That's really a lot of destro pug crying here. The good destro groups have zero problems with the BHA in fort.

You also don't see that when there are only 1-2 SWs then this dot can be easily cleansed, rendering the whole DPS class useless.

Elvicof
Posts: 83

Re: Broadhead Arrow Suggestion.

Post#84 » Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:20 pm

Justina wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 12:23 pm
This.

The BHA SW is good in that one situation where you have all people in a small room and then you also need a dozend of SWs to kill them. In any other situation, like open field or scenarios it isn't great at all. The easiest way to get rid of BHA is still to kill the SWs. If you are standing inside a fort with your melee blob and let the SWs spam on you then it's your own fault. Get some ranged dps and fire back. SWs are super squishy.

That's really a lot of destro pug crying here. The good destro groups have zero problems with the BHA in fort.

You also don't see that when there are only 1-2 SWs then this dot can be easily cleansed, rendering the whole DPS class useless.
Then just put a cap on the actually stack by multiple SW to 3 etc. Then you havent touched the SW dmg alone, but only the power of stacking above 3 in situations like fort.
Moonlapse and VII

Justina
Posts: 29

Re: Broadhead Arrow Suggestion.

Post#85 » Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:28 pm

Elvicof wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:20 pm
Justina wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 12:23 pm
This.

The BHA SW is good in that one situation where you have all people in a small room and then you also need a dozend of SWs to kill them. In any other situation, like open field or scenarios it isn't great at all. The easiest way to get rid of BHA is still to kill the SWs. If you are standing inside a fort with your melee blob and let the SWs spam on you then it's your own fault. Get some ranged dps and fire back. SWs are super squishy.

That's really a lot of destro pug crying here. The good destro groups have zero problems with the BHA in fort.

You also don't see that when there are only 1-2 SWs then this dot can be easily cleansed, rendering the whole DPS class useless.
Then just put a cap on the actually stack by multiple SW to 3 etc. Then you havent touched the SW dmg alone, but only the power of stacking above 3 in situations like fort.
There is one scenario where that class is good at and you wanna nerf it? Why? Other classes can do that too. Take 7 melee SHs, jump in, spam AOE, done. Take 7 magi, spam aoe dot, done. Take 7 melee aoe, spam aoe, done. They all stack.

Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it is in need of a nerf. Order doesn't like the constant aoe knock down and mara/choppa pulls either. When you nerf that we can talk about a BHA nerf.

Garamore
Posts: 11

Re: Broadhead Arrow Suggestion.

Post#86 » Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:44 pm

Its that one place though that stops destro from getting to City. Its only when SW are standing out of reach and spamming BHA in a confined space that you notice it. In that space its so OP and there isn't much destro can do to get to the SW through the fort doors. A lot of people are campaign motivated and therefore this has a big effect on them. Would you push a campaign knowing that you will get to the fort and lose unless there is really no opposition. Destro pop is dropping rapidly and relies on the order guild to come over and support. It will only get worse until something is done about BHA- either an effective usable counter (spamming cleanse isnt effective as then you cant heal) or something like only allowing one stack of BHA needs to be done asap.

Gargis
Posts: 24

Re: Broadhead Arrow Suggestion.

Post#87 » Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:59 pm

You realize there is a counter to BHA right?

Try DOK with Khaines withdrawal M2 and s/b BG with Khaines warding M4 on fort push.

Then again you can keep claiming that s/b BG’s suck and keep bringing all those 2H tanks so I can get more renown, thanks. Matter of fact ignore this post.

Want to get fancy? Have your 2nd tank a BO, KB on push. Then channel his block after in at the same time the BG hits his M4. Whallah, group with full health.

Then BO hits M4. Ohh noes, group taking periodic damage. Time for. DOK M2.

Take another DOK for 2 Khaines withdrawal or zealot, does not matter .

Time to think outside the box, there is a counter for forts, you just have to decide to use it.

User avatar
Onigokko0101
Posts: 192

Re: Broadhead Arrow Suggestion.

Post#88 » Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:23 pm

Justina wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 12:23 pm
mryay wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 11:51 pm
Now to answer the original poster: in this state of the game, No I am against nerfing BHA stacking, here is why:
- The design of SW/Skirmish damage fits and works quite well in the grand Open RVR design:
SW does terrible damage to tanks. If you can get above 300 at 3 stacks twice a year.
SW does so so damage to heavy mdps: I am including Marauder, mSH, full Off tanks
SW does punishing damages to light armor and Bersek Choppas
The only exception are WE, because they have a substantial amount of escape/disrupt mechanisms
- Skirmish AoE build operates at 65 feet: this means you are in melee range. Most specifically you are in pull range. Remember that Destro has 3 pull class + Marauder's pull is much reliable/faster than WL pull. Choppa pull put in you insta shred. Fortunatly most Destro doesn't know the value of Rift Magus otherwise Order would be posting day and night about how this CC give a significant advantage to Destro at the moment.
This is not counting AoE KD, Charge, Pounce, AoE Stagger.
- And Skirmish AoE is a light armor stance, meaning you know the SW will not play alone, it is part of a team composition to make it work. A dead SW does not do DPS. When you yolo/solo better go single target SW.
This.

The BHA SW is good in that one situation where you have all people in a small room and then you also need a dozend of SWs to kill them. In any other situation, like open field or scenarios it isn't great at all. The easiest way to get rid of BHA is still to kill the SWs. If you are standing inside a fort with your melee blob and let the SWs spam on you then it's your own fault. Get some ranged dps and fire back. SWs are super squishy.

That's really a lot of destro pug crying here. The good destro groups have zero problems with the BHA in fort.

You also don't see that when there are only 1-2 SWs then this dot can be easily cleansed, rendering the whole DPS class useless.
Thats completely and utterly not true. Even organized WBs are getting melted by BHA spam. You cant cleanse 12 different stacks of BHA with two heals per group, even running DoK M2. I play in those 'good groups' and its still a huge problem.

Furthermore, on a seperate note on this thread: SW IS NOT BAD IN CITIES.

There are good SW players now outdamaging magus/engis in city.



BHA needs a hardcap. RoF dosent stack, Mist dosent stack, Napalm Dosent, Firestorm Dosent. All these high damage AoEs dont stack like BHA can.
Khrylashe - Zealot
Devarien - Blackguard
Bigdisc- Magus
Aendael - Warrior Priest
Nusku- Bright Wizard

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Onigokko0101
Posts: 192

Re: Broadhead Arrow Suggestion.

Post#89 » Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:25 pm

Gargis wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:59 pm
You realize there is a counter to BHA right?

Try DOK with Khaines withdrawal M2 and s/b BG with Khaines warding M4 on fort push.

Then again you can keep claiming that s/b BG’s suck and keep bringing all those 2H tanks so I can get more renown, thanks. Matter of fact ignore this post.

Want to get fancy? Have your 2nd tank a BO, KB on push. Then channel his block after in at the same time the BG hits his M4. Whallah, group with full health.

Then BO hits M4. Ohh noes, group taking periodic damage. Time for. DOK M2.

Take another DOK for 2 Khaines withdrawal or zealot, does not matter .

Time to think outside the box, there is a counter for forts, you just have to decide to use it.
Yeah thats does not work. The fact you think people are already not doing that is hilarious.

You still get massive stacks with Shaman+DoK+DoK M2 with Chop Fasta. Not only that but guess what, if both healers are spam cleansing only they arent healing.

BHA is a massive issue in largescale. Stop lying to yourself it isnt.

Also as a side note, BG M4 really isnt good anymore with the morale drop changes months ago. The extra healing isnt worth as much as a second Immaculate Defense.
Khrylashe - Zealot
Devarien - Blackguard
Bigdisc- Magus
Aendael - Warrior Priest
Nusku- Bright Wizard

BeautfulToad
Posts: 540

Re: Broadhead Arrow Suggestion.

Post#90 » Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:24 pm

mryay wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 11:51 pm

Marauder's pull is much reliable/faster than WL pull. Choppa pull put in you insta shred.

Justina wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:28 pm
Order doesn't like the constant aoe knock down and mara/choppa pulls either.

These are the worst abilities to cite when arguing against a nerf. Mara and choppa pull were both nerfed precisely because the devs thought they were overperforming, like WL pounce.

mryay wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 11:51 pm

Finally, when does "Infinite BHA" occurs? The devil is in the details. It does never occur.

Someone posted up the active debuffs, so it might be rare, but it does seem to happen. If it doesn't happen often, don't see why you'd oppose a soft cap on stacking. I'd lazily have thought for performance issues, it would need to be scaled back.

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