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Broadhead Arrow Suggestion.

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Auzor
Posts: 33

Re: Broadhead Arrow Suggestion.

Post#11 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:44 am

teiloh wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:23 am
ururu wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:01 am
teiloh wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:03 am
Pandemonium/Frag Grenade/Gloom of Night etc all stack from multiple attackers just like BHA does.

BW used to have one too but Detonate was nerfed to **** early on live.
Pandemonium has only 1 stack and 5 sec cooldown tho. But whatever, we don't have to have a mirror everywhere. However, BHA should be definitely looked into if it has all three points 1)unlimited stacking from multiple sources 2) no defence checks after application 3) no cooldown.
Glean+Pande w/ Flamer (and Engi Equiv) does a bit more damage than BHA, and it leaves a tac slot free.

But yeah SW does bring up the sheer number of Order players with ranged AOE dot by a lot.

Re: Glean + Pandemonium:
Pandemonium has a cd, as was already mentioned.
Which is more common, dodge or disrupt?
I reckon it's disrupt.
For Pandemonium, the Magus/Engi is only mobile, when he has Flamer stacks. Considerably less mobile than a skirmisher SW.
Also note, that Magus has less (/worse) escape tools: no self- knockback and the like.
And a rather debatable 'melee' capability imo; Assault > Daemonology, besides the pull?
Magus is also far easier to spot... being on his disk and all.
And isn't Engineer AoE slightly above Magus AoE? (with Magus having better single target, thanks to elemental vs ballistic dmg?)

Also, does your damage comparison include 'Vengeful'?
1/3rd the time, the SW is at +25% more damage dealt...

I've seen multiple SC's, with 3 Shadow warriors in the top 6 of damage.
That's between both order & destro.
Worse, they're also quite good at getting kills.
Anecdotical, sure.


Levelling destro, SC-wise during double XP has been extremely painful.


Here's the thing though:
name another tactic, that is that low in the tree, that has such an effect.
I'll raise you the Magus Havoc tactic: Flickering Red Fire & Violet Fire, will hit 1!! additional target, up to 15 feet away.
Various other DPS have similar tactics, I seem to recall Witch Hunter.

For what it does, this should be higher in the tree; and perhaps be limited: hits 2 other targets, or some maximum.
Compare this tactic, to 'Keen arrowheads', and tell me which one seems like it deserves to be higher in the tree.

On the other hand, Shaman heals, only gets an AoE (well, group) cleanse, at the highest tactic in the healing tree.
I'd like to see this lowered. (Same for AM)
Or perhaps group cleanse tactic should even be a 'career' thing for them.
Note that Shaman can't cleanse Hex's...
Which are the effect type of... oh, BW, AM, Engineer, ... a lot of ranged DPS.
AM can't cleanse Curses.
AM can Cleanse Shaman, Magus, SH, ... not sorcs.
So most of the ranged DPS.

(WP can't cleanse Ailments; so he can cleanse Sorc, Magus, not SqH/Sha. Still quite a bit of ranged DoT's he can cleanse).

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Justina
Posts: 4

Re: Broadhead Arrow Suggestion.

Post#12 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:48 am

Auzor wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:44 am
Levelling destro, SC-wise during double XP has been extremely painful.
That's the real reason you are all crying. Broadhead is strong in midtier SC, I agree, but as soon you hit 40 the damage is basically gone and broadhead is underperforming compared to melee blobs spamming aoe.

Mepiff
Posts: 16

Re: Broadhead Arrow Suggestion.

Post#13 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:51 am

Justina wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:48 am
Auzor wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:44 am
Levelling destro, SC-wise during double XP has been extremely painful.
That's the real reason you are all crying. Broadhead is strong in midtier SC, I agree, but as soon you hit 40 the damage is basically gone and broadhead is underperforming compared to melee blobs spamming aoe.
The first thing i realised when i went over to order and made my KOTBS is that litteraly everyone is taking next to zero damage during a fort push/defence the problem with BHA only really arises when there are more then 2 or 3 present at a given time because the damage just never stops scaling when you class-stack them.

Justina
Posts: 4

Re: Broadhead Arrow Suggestion.

Post#14 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:56 am

Mepiff wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:51 am
The first thing i realised when i went over to order and made my KOTBS is that litteraly everyone is taking next to zero damage during a fort push/defence the problem with BHA only really arises when there are more then 2 or 3 present at a given time because the damage just never stops scaling when you class-stack them.
You mean that order has an advantage because they bring more ranged dds while you are standing inside with tons of melees and cant do anything? Well, roll more ranged dps or come outside.

The fort is the only scenario where the SWs have an advantage with broadhead. When looking at KEEPS then broadhead is basically useless. You just don't have enough range.
When destro is attacking keeps they just stay out of range and then blob in through the postern and start spamming aoe damage, knock downs and morals. How easy is that?
As defenders they have the tanks in front who dont take any damage from broadhead and everything else is out of range.

Caduceus
Posts: 239

Re: Broadhead Arrow Suggestion.

Post#15 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:09 am

teiloh wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:03 am
Pandemonium/Frag Grenade/Gloom of Night etc all stack from multiple attackers just like BHA does.

And they're all on a cooldown.

Solution found: make Split Arrows put BHA on a 5 second cooldown.
"I watched a snail crawl along the edge of a straight razor. That's my dream; that's my nightmare. Crawling, slithering, along the edge of a straight razor... and surviving." - Colonel Walter E. Kurtz

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tvbrowntown
Posts: 45

Re: Broadhead Arrow Suggestion.

Post#16 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:14 am

Justina wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:36 am
tvbrowntown wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:22 am
Having 4+ stacks of x3 BHA is fkn unreal broken and unbelievable it's been like this for a while.
How is broadhead stacking broken and melee aoe stacking or magus dot stacking is not?

You need to fire it three times to do some damage and it can be blocked, evaded... and it is affected by the targets armor ... and the 3x stacking can be cleasned with 1x cleanse ... and it has only a small radius ... and you have to get very close as squishy SW. Compared to the melee aoe stacking this is not overpowered at all and way harder to perform.

What is really broken in this game is the amount of times you are getting pulled by maras and choppas while order has not really working pull at all. Lots of free kills for destro. We can nerf broadhead when you nerf that pull crap too.
I guess you haven't noticed that each SW that does casts BHA gets their own unique stack. If 6 SWs all put on 3 stacks of BHA you've got 6 unique full stacks of BHA absolutely smashing through your health bar. With the way cleanse works it is pretty difficult to get rid of.

In regards to your problem, I'd suggest you make a thread about it if you cant figure out how to not get caught out of position yet.

Justina
Posts: 4

Re: Broadhead Arrow Suggestion.

Post#17 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:20 am

tvbrowntown wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:14 am
I guess you haven't noticed that each SW that does casts BHA gets their own unique stack. If 6 SWs all put on 3 stacks of BHA you've got 6 unique full stacks of BHA absolutely smashing through your health bar. With the way cleanse works it is pretty difficult to get rid of.

In regards to your problem, I'd suggest you make a thread about it if you cant figure out how to not get caught out of position yet.
If 6 SWs are stacking on you, then you are supposed to die. There is cleanse, there are group hots and heals, there are group and single target absorbs, there are armor potions and talisman, there is Deft Defender for dodge, there is detaunt.

The radius of broadhead is so small... it really only works in forts at the final stage where lots of people are in a tight space.

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wachlarz
Posts: 597

Re: Broadhead Arrow Suggestion.

Post#18 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:22 am

No1 include that U cant clense stackable and spamable aoe dot.

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teiloh
Posts: 681

Re: Broadhead Arrow Suggestion.

Post#19 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:58 am

Auzor wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:44 am
teiloh wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:23 am
ururu wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:01 am


Pandemonium has only 1 stack and 5 sec cooldown tho. But whatever, we don't have to have a mirror everywhere. However, BHA should be definitely looked into if it has all three points 1)unlimited stacking from multiple sources 2) no defence checks after application 3) no cooldown.
Glean+Pande w/ Flamer (and Engi Equiv) does a bit more damage than BHA, and it leaves a tac slot free.

But yeah SW does bring up the sheer number of Order players with ranged AOE dot by a lot.

Re: Glean + Pandemonium:
Pandemonium has a cd, as was already mentioned.
Which is more common, dodge or disrupt?
I reckon it's disrupt.
For Pandemonium, the Magus/Engi is only mobile, when he has Flamer stacks. Considerably less mobile than a skirmisher SW.
Also note, that Magus has less (/worse) escape tools: no self- knockback and the like.
And a rather debatable 'melee' capability imo; Assault > Daemonology, besides the pull?
Magus is also far easier to spot... being on his disk and all.
And isn't Engineer AoE slightly above Magus AoE? (with Magus having better single target, thanks to elemental vs ballistic dmg?)

Also, does your damage comparison include 'Vengeful'?
1/3rd the time, the SW is at +25% more damage dealt...

I've seen multiple SC's, with 3 Shadow warriors in the top 6 of damage.
That's between both order & destro.
Worse, they're also quite good at getting kills.
Anecdotical, sure.


Levelling destro, SC-wise during double XP has been extremely painful.


Here's the thing though:
name another tactic, that is that low in the tree, that has such an effect.
I'll raise you the Magus Havoc tactic: Flickering Red Fire & Violet Fire, will hit 1!! additional target, up to 15 feet away.
Various other DPS have similar tactics, I seem to recall Witch Hunter.

For what it does, this should be higher in the tree; and perhaps be limited: hits 2 other targets, or some maximum.
Compare this tactic, to 'Keen arrowheads', and tell me which one seems like it deserves to be higher in the tree.

On the other hand, Shaman heals, only gets an AoE (well, group) cleanse, at the highest tactic in the healing tree.
I'd like to see this lowered. (Same for AM)
Or perhaps group cleanse tactic should even be a 'career' thing for them.
Note that Shaman can't cleanse Hex's...
Which are the effect type of... oh, BW, AM, Engineer, ... a lot of ranged DPS.
AM can't cleanse Curses.
AM can Cleanse Shaman, Magus, SH, ... not sorcs.
So most of the ranged DPS.

(WP can't cleanse Ailments; so he can cleanse Sorc, Magus, not SqH/Sha. Still quite a bit of ranged DoT's he can cleanse).

Those are fair points of course, VoN will definitely be included in that. But having a tactic slot free means the Magus can add more crit, or AP, or survivability etc. I was strictly talking about fort rampart nuking situations, in open field the Magus' close range DoTs put them far ahead in AOE damage (probably above all other classes in the game)

Magus does significantly more AOE damage than Engi for a number of reasons, mostly because they self debuff their frontal DD and their melee range AOE dot is frontal AOE rather than a thin line. Vs SW, they also hit resistances and self debuff, vs Armor.
Last edited by teiloh on Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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teiloh
Posts: 681

Re: Broadhead Arrow Suggestion.

Post#20 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:59 am

Caduceus wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:09 am
teiloh wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:03 am
Pandemonium/Frag Grenade/Gloom of Night etc all stack from multiple attackers just like BHA does.

And they're all on a cooldown.

Solution found: make Split Arrows put BHA on a 5 second cooldown.

That wouldn't be a terrible change but Glean/Pande's CDs are usually negligible. Pandemonium on its own hits for quite a bit more than 1xBHA.

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