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Pierce Defenses on Destruction.

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ururu
Posts: 17

Pierce Defenses on Destruction.

Post#1 » Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:09 am

Good day y'all.
Seeing your frontline melt before push happens is not a fun experience, we can all agree on that. So I've been looking around Destro range dps options.
And couldn't help but notice that PD tactic not only mirrored with same stats (block, parry, dodge) despite Destruction having only one class that benefits from dodge reduction, but also belongs to a class that can barely apply it in a Keep\Fort funnel situations. Unless i am missing something critical. And i hope that no one would argue that lately Destruction doesn't feel great in these events. Even if first fort phase was won without problems, door pushes often feels catastrophic with amount of pressure Order mounts up. Then again, i have no stats to back it up, only hard evidence i could find is fort tracker posts from the end of 2020.

Anyway, back to PD. If i went to write up a balance proposal right now, i would suggest moving PD over to Magus, while changing dodge debuff to disrupt. This would not only increase Destro's ability to apply pressure on Order tanks and rDPS, but also guarantee Magus a place in pretty much any organized warband. Which they certainly could use, cause Sorcs are usually preferred. On the negative side - this most likely will hurt mSH, but at least it'll open up new roads for reworking and balancing this already suffering class.

At this point i'll end my rant and would be pleased to hear your thoughts about this whole situation. Inb4: OP - noob, git gud, destro bias, nerf bha, better nerf Irelia.

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Auzor
Posts: 46

Re: Pierce Defenses on Destruction.

Post#2 » Mon Jun 21, 2021 12:16 pm

Magus may have issues; but I do not agree on Magus getting PD with 'only' your post as argumentation.

(my 'main' is a Magus; which I'm slowly ranking up...so bear with me).

Any 'pierce defenses' would have to be a tactic.
Well, Magus already has a bunch of tactics...
If you Havoc or Change, the tree's +15% crit chance is pretty much an auto-take.
Then, there's 'Daemonic Withering': Withered Soul: victim takes +15% dmg from all sources. Seems pretty hard to not take.

Moving on, in terms of 'piercing defenses':
Havoc gets 'Bolt of Change': which is a pretty 'core' ability of the tree, undefendable, 3s cast, 10s cooldown. Wouldn't benefit from 'Pierce Defenses', obviously.
Then, we have 'Flame's Kiss'. Flickering Red Fire & Rend winds are undefendable.

Any changes to Magus tactics, should imo, firstly consider looking at how many affect Flickering Red Fire & Violet Fire... and none of the better Havoc skills.
And secondly, consider 'ranked'. And the viability of Magus in such settings. Limited mobility, limited escapes (=no), limited survivability... no good ranged snare, no -healing received or produced debuff, no silence... a knockdown that kills your Daemon and thus reduces your own output too...

For siege warfare, Magus already has something of a role, thanks simply to the range Havoc + pink horror can bring. Even Change + range tactic + Pink Horror, + 10 feet range set bonus basically should mean you can hit whatever you want that is within 'combat' range.

For lately 'melting' effects, I really think the devs need to take a look at BHA again, and admit they **** up.
Another tendency is, that order simply has more players; so faster melting, and specifically more ranged & more healers. I regularly join PUG-WB's, and you're lucky to have 1 healer in the group. IIRC, Order's most played class was WP.
But Destro often brings not a whole lot of ranged DPS. Last two *destro* sieges I was at, it took very long (too long) to kill the oil... I saw myself, two Sorcs, and I think a Squigh Herder shooting at the oil... 2 partial WB's there... that's simply... far from enough. Now, undoubtedly there was more ranged destro there, but they're shooting at people on the walls or whatever etc; but still: Destro Rdps was way, way outnumbered, in a somewhat 'even' fight numbers wise. (and we got steamrolled hard, when more Order joined in.. )
Pierce Defenses alone, imo, cannot sort this out.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Magus tactics suggestions:

'Infernal Flesh': Daemons will be summoned with more wounds: this can either be core; an ability to strengthen your turret; or turret should take even less AoE dmg. (same for engineer!)

Flame's Kiss: FRF & Rend Winds become undefendable. Why is this given to those two abilities; and none within Daemonology? I'd like to see this shifted to Mutating Blue Fire, Rend winds sure maybe, and perhaps Daemonic Lash?

Chaotic Atunement: instant daemon summon: imo, should be default. Re-summon free: no; but it should not cost 60 action points either. 30-35 seems more reasonable. Then a new tactic, could be to remove this cost, and build your stacks twice as fast. (same for engineer!); and, perhaps increase the range you can be from your daemon. An extra 10-20 feet where you keep your stacks?

Close Quarters tactic: I want to like this. But, it does not affect your channeled abilities. Most of your other abilities, have shorter cast time than GCD.... so...
It's really imo, long cast/channel time abilities where this would help the most... imo, that means Blue Fire, Bolt of Change, and... your channeled abilities.

Surging Power: oh look another 'buff Flickering Red fire' tactic (& some others, including SVF for Havoc).
Imagine if this buffed your Indigo Fire channel instead.

Swift Flames: SVF buff. Why only this ability? Make it reduce the cooldown of 'Agonizing Torrent' by 10s too e.g (heck, keep it at -7s for both)... (I don't really want to overbuff Tzeentch Firestorm, which is the only one in 'Changing' that I see could have cd reduced)...

Oh don't forget, in the Havoc Tree, two more tactics that buff FRF and/or SVF...
Imagine a 'Fiery Winds' that applies to Indigo Fire; and a Changers Blessing applying to Bolt of Change...

afaik, Engineer & most other classes, don't have such a stubborn tactic set, of tactics that all buff your 'filler' attacks in some way or another...
IF Magus would have 8 tactic slots, sure... Take the 'hit an extra target', +50% crit damage, undefendable,... tactics. But we don't... And the same tactic slots, are where you buff your overall DPS/survivability/utility with.

Note that:
although people tend to consider Magus stronger than Engineer for ranged:
Engineer's Bugmans best, heals the group; vs Magus Orange Fire... temp self-hp.
Engineer can have +15% crit chance to everything, in 3rd tree.. within 100? feet of turret. Magus's is tree-specific, and has no such tactic for Daemonology tree.
Engineer, being ranged, has a ranged auto-attack.
With 'Quick Reloader' tactic, Engineer's snipe, has faster cast time, than 'Bolt of Change'. And far, far faster travel time. In fact, with enough renown and gear, Engineer can cast faster & still have the +crit.
Engineer's signal flare: -5% dodge, AND block. Magus's only lowers disrupt chance. That is without considering 'Pierce Defenses' still.
Pierce Defenses: also lowering Parry is ironic on a Dwarven Rdps considering Ironbreaker gives his oathfriend +25% parry; and Slayer outright ignores parry with Rampage.

However: Engineer Pierce Defenses: at least, Engineer is not very mobile.
But last I checked, SW had the same tactic.


----------------------------------------

Some more considerations, in terms of escapes:
Instability (turret detonation) has a 60 second cooldown.
Make it knock yourself back a small distance if within X (30?) feet, and perhaps also, break any roots/snares, buff your movement speed by 20-25% for 6? seconds.
(NB: SW whirling pin, snares everyone within 30 feet and knocks self back what I'd consider a pretty generous range, on a 30s coodlown. SW is not tied to turrets.

ururu
Posts: 17

Re: Pierce Defenses on Destruction.

Post#3 » Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:32 pm

Auzor wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 12:16 pm
Magus may have issues
You see, Magus was chosen as an example, since Change\\Daemonology trees already specializing on mass fights, which makes application of PD easier. My point is not about magus issues, i've just found interesting irregularity and suggest that it could be tinkered with to provide solution to perceived problem.
Well, Magus already has a bunch of tactics...
I see it as a boon. Imho, it's better to have many useful tactics with which you can adapt to different battlefields. SC builds aren't same as RVR, RVR aren't same with city builds. PD is not supposed to be taken in every tree and that's alright in my book.

Dabbart
Posts: 2122

Re: Pierce Defenses on Destruction.

Post#4 » Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:50 pm

Pierce defenses only affects dodge, block, and parry. So unless one changes dodge to disrupt, and thus risk breaking destro magic damage. And if you don't change it, then magus is debuffing evasions that don't impact it other than block.
Azarael wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2016 6:30 pm
It's only a nerf if you're bad.

(see, I can shitpost too!)

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xanderous
Posts: 502

Re: Pierce Defenses on Destruction.

Post#5 » Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:00 pm

The main argument for PD now that thanks to the squig herders ranged direct hit aoe spammable was removed, now destro cannot cannot apply PD from range anymore via AOE but order can with two classes, if you want aoe PD on destro you have to go melee, so thats another ranged advantage for order again. The easy fix is to either give back squig "shoot thro em" or give it to magus, for engies PD is pretty much mandatory for warbands so i don't see why magus should not be in same boat.
Bashgutz RR82 Borc Vaseryn RR61 SM Krantz RR82 Knight Corvinus RR70 Chosen Mormonty RR72 IB
Starkus RR70 BG Snaptz RR83 SH Plagueis RR81 Magus Alec RR85 Engie Sourgazt RR69 Shaman
Kreaver RR80 Marauder Dugald RR75 Slayer

ururu
Posts: 17

Re: Pierce Defenses on Destruction.

Post#6 » Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:12 pm

Dabbart wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:50 pm
Pierce defenses only affects dodge, block, and parry. So unless one changes dodge to disrupt, and thus risk breaking destro magic damage. And if you don't change it, then magus is debuffing evasions that don't impact it other than block.
Part about switching dodge to disrupt was in my post. And i agree, if that ever happens - devs might consider looking at damage numbers of some magic aoe abilities, mainly spammable ones.

Dabbart
Posts: 2122

Re: Pierce Defenses on Destruction.

Post#7 » Mon Jun 21, 2021 5:09 pm

Spoiler:
So AoE Sorc will be nerfed, AoE magus nerf, and AoE shaman nerf, all in order to balance this. Did you think this through? AoE stackable debuffs are very powerful, remember this is a tactic so it stacks with any ability or morale debuffs. Simply swapping dodge for disrupt could break the game. Not to mention the sheer incredulity I would view giving order access to this version of PD.

Can I ask why you thought Magus needed this tactic? Outside of appealing to the class mirror, or just to ensure a single WB slot that is. The argument could be for another Destro DPS. But as already stated do to limited tactic slots, outside of a niche wb spec, adding another PD to Destro won't really help that much. Not when SH brings other tools to the table.

Edit: if you want to help Magus, give em a heal debuff.
Edit2: actually NM. Feck it, 24AoE is here to stay. Might as well give every class some broken AoE ability. /Back to lurking.
Azarael wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2016 6:30 pm
It's only a nerf if you're bad.

(see, I can shitpost too!)

Tom
Posts: 112

Re: Pierce Defenses on Destruction.

Post#8 » Mon Jun 21, 2021 9:45 pm

Pierce Defenses? No need for fancy solutions, just give Melee DOK rampage and another non-WB class can get a front row seat.

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teiloh
Posts: 688

Re: Pierce Defenses on Destruction.

Post#9 » Tue Jun 22, 2021 5:11 am

Might be cleaner to restore some AOE functionality to RSH. Having PD take down Disrupt would make Destro magic damage too strong.

ururu
Posts: 17

Re: Pierce Defenses on Destruction.

Post#10 » Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:36 pm

teiloh wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 5:11 am
Might be cleaner to restore some AOE functionality to RSH. Having PD take down Disrupt would make Destro magic damage too strong.
Kinda agree, but this would leave Destro with two ranged classes that get only half of PD benefit. Still, much better than not applying PD and rSH being utterly useless in funnels.

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