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[Ranked]Let's fix ranked games before they die.

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Mergrim
Posts: 198

[Ranked]Let's fix ranked games before they die.

Post#1 » Thu Jul 15, 2021 4:51 pm

First remove MMR req for drop triumphant insignia.

Every new ranked player, after losing 5-10 games in a row, simply gives up and doesn't play anymore.
5k-6k triumphant marks is not enough farm to get BiS?

Currently, ranked games pop only evenings.
The mmr system is badly made. Even with enough players on both sides, ranked games not pop at all.
1 pop for me, 20 minutes without any game, and there are enough people to pop 2 games...
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agemennon675
Posts: 379

Re: [Ranked]Let's fix ranked games before they die.

Post#2 » Thu Jul 15, 2021 4:54 pm

Funny, if you remove mmr requirement for insignias players would juts get 50 wins buy the items and never queue again your idea is the way to kill ranked not the other way around
Destruction: 40-BG / 40-DoK / 40-Chosen / 37-Mara / 37/Sorc / 36-SH / 36-Choppa / 24-Shaman / 16-WE
Order: 40-SW / 40-SM / 40-WP / 40-WL / 39-Kotbs / 38-BW / 33-AM / 22-WH / 16-RP / 12-Slayer

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oaliaen
Posts: 988

Re: [Ranked]Let's fix ranked games before they die.

Post#3 » Thu Jul 15, 2021 5:03 pm

remove mmr req and put 150 wins req. Or both
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Mergrim
Posts: 198

Re: [Ranked]Let's fix ranked games before they die.

Post#4 » Thu Jul 15, 2021 5:10 pm

agemennon675 wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 4:54 pm
Funny, if you remove mmr requirement for insignias players would juts get 50 wins buy the items and never queue again your idea is the way to kill ranked not the other way around
How many ppl, have 2k triumphant marks to buy ring? ring alone give you nothing. They still need get rest piece 2/3/4/6 triumphant.

How many ppl from top 100 truly deserve to be there? 30%? It's mostly show ppl that stack winning side.
I had a lot of characters high in the preseason, but I don't really care about mmr. I just want to play ranked games, the only fun / challenge for me right now.

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ufthakk
Posts: 233

Re: [Ranked]Let's fix ranked games before they die.

Post#5 » Thu Jul 15, 2021 9:22 pm

Mergrim wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 4:51 pm

Currently, ranked games pop only evenings.
Soical backslash cause elite being too exclusiv ;)

Caduceus
Posts: 411

Re: [Ranked]Let's fix ranked games before they die.

Post#6 » Fri Jul 16, 2021 8:27 am

Ranked is having some serious problems. I think the MMR requirement indeed needs to be removed, for several reasons.

The first, obvious reason is that players need an incentive to queue, even if they or their class cannot get above 1000 MMR. If this incentive is not in place, these players will simply realize there is no point and stop playing.

Second, because of class balance and how easily the system can be abused MMR is a bad reflection of the player's skill. Therefore it makes no sense to lock rewards behind MMR.

Further, match making needs to be made functional. Brackets are the most obvious solution.

The lack of seperation of players in different skill/gear categories does three things that are killing Ranked.

First, low skill players become the weak link in many of their games and cause "loss by default". Terribly frustrating and demotivating for both the low skill players and the players they are getting matched with.

Second, for higher skill players, especially those below 1000 MMR who can still get matched with 0 MMR players, the match making becomes Russian roulette where a match with a low skill player on your team can throw a lot of hard work down the drain.

Third, the huge window of MMR in which players can get matched together allow for fishing for easy matches, which in turn leads to queue stacking and cross realming and maybe worse (intentional throwing?). This conflicts with everything a ranked game mode is supposed to be, AND with the idea of locking rewards behind MMR.

Bracketing is essential, because the mismatching is rapidly pushing people out of Ranked.

Brackets cannot solve all issues, but they might reduce their impact to more acceptable levels. A beginner bracket (0-250, for example) seems like the bare minimum.

Yes, it will increase queue time, but if this situation is left unchanged there will not be queues anymore period, because Ranked will likely die.

Also, never let "We are a small community" become a valid excuse for this obviously flawed system. Over 1500 different characters have given Ranked a chance. We had more than enough people willing to give Ranked a shot. We lost them because the system is BAD.
"I watched a snail crawl along the edge of a straight razor. That's my dream; that's my nightmare. Crawling, slithering, along the edge of a straight razor... and surviving." - Colonel Walter E. Kurtz

BeautfulToad
Posts: 553

Re: [Ranked]Let's fix ranked games before they die.

Post#7 » Fri Jul 16, 2021 10:46 am

Ranked is a quasi-knock out system, people are encouraged to stop queuing if they lose. You need a positive win/loss ratio if I understand.

To see this, just run the tournament with random winners, where everyone has a 50% chance of losing. In a knockout, you end up with one team left. In this system, you still "knock out" players with losses just more slowly. Since this is not a draw, though, what happens is that smart players pick the times to play. They can accumulate wins at lower ranked players' expense, thereby definitively knocking them out, while ensuring they have a surplus of wins which they can then gamble.

The entire ranked system is a knock out system, it's design explicitly reduces player participation over time. It's not clear if that was the intention, however.
ufthakk wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 9:22 pm
Soical backslash cause elite being too exclusiv ;)
Have to agree with this. I've played two ranked games (I find 6v6 a pretty boring game mode). One won, the other we lost, with a fair bit of aggro directed at a choppa wearing annihilator stuff. The desire to ensure that only those "truly deserving" of digital tokens get them, just results in systems which encourage low participation, and a poor experience for anyone without the best gear.

Fenris78
Posts: 381

Re: [Ranked]Let's fix ranked games before they die.

Post#8 » Fri Jul 16, 2021 11:16 am

Or you can just make mmr only increasing over played matches :
- Zero/very small increase for a loss (depending of relative mmr and loss degree)
- Average increase for a draw / close victory
- High increase for a win
- Decrease gains after streaks of victories, to discourage farming same ppl over and over.

And increase the gain for a fully played match to incentivize fighting instead of throwing, ie. If your team got obliterated after the first engagment, it may be zero to very small mmr gain for losers, but very small gains for winners too since they didnt had to put many effort to win.

Reward hard fights with close wins and long skirmish, in proportion to the efforts needed to earn your victory (while rewarding the fight back too).

I imagine a system like this (numbers are for example purpose ofc) :
- You fight for the whole 10 mins, and got one kill on the last seconds : Winner got 100, loser got 80 , something like that. Everyone was obviously trying their best until the very end when one error was made. Well played from both teams, good match = reward both sides from pulling their asses out.

- You fight for the whole 10 mins, with a draw at the end (with or without kills) : Both teams got 50 . Everyone was obviously trying their best and did well throughout the match, despite not having the focus to crack opponents they did well and balanced = both teams are equally rewarded.

- You fight for 5-6 mins, then got 1-2 kills, but opponent managed to stabilize and survive until the end, maybe doing 1 kill back : Winner got 60, loser got 40 . Close match with a potentiel backflip, and a close victory with well played moves. Both teams are rewarded for a good fight.

- You fight for 1 min, and got 6 kills, then flag capped : winner got 20, loser got 10. Obviously it was either bad comp, bad gear or bad play, or a throw wich means nobody deserve much for that. No big effort, no big rewards.

Something around these, to not discourage players from queuing, while not penalizing them from facing better/more geared/meta comp with cannot be avoided with current system (its very random atm).

This way, you'll get more "casual" ranked, obviously, since people will still queue despite their results, knowing they will ultimately get the insignas after X played matches.

But now you encourage everyone to fight their best to ease the grind, instead of just quitting since they lose all previous gains from bad luck/bad comp/etc.

"L’important dans ces olympiades, c’est moins d’y gagner que d’y prendre part" - Pierre De Coubertin, 1908

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ChicagoJoe
Posts: 220

Re: [Ranked]Let's fix ranked games before they die.

Post#9 » Fri Jul 16, 2021 1:25 pm

Fenris78 wrote:
Fri Jul 16, 2021 11:16 am
Or you can just make mmr only increasing over played matches :
- Zero/very small increase for a loss (depending of relative mmr and loss degree)
- Average increase for a draw / close victory
- High increase for a win
- Decrease gains after streaks of victories, to discourage farming same ppl over and over.

And increase the gain for a fully played match to incentivize fighting instead of throwing, ie. If your team got obliterated after the first engagment, it may be zero to very small mmr gain for losers, but very small gains for winners too since they didnt had to put many effort to win.

Reward hard fights with close wins and long skirmish, in proportion to the efforts needed to earn your victory (while rewarding the fight back too).

I imagine a system like this (numbers are for example purpose ofc) :
- You fight for the whole 10 mins, and got one kill on the last seconds : Winner got 100, loser got 80 , something like that. Everyone was obviously trying their best until the very end when one error was made. Well played from both teams, good match = reward both sides from pulling their asses out.

- You fight for the whole 10 mins, with a draw at the end (with or without kills) : Both teams got 50 . Everyone was obviously trying their best and did well throughout the match, despite not having the focus to crack opponents they did well and balanced = both teams are equally rewarded.

- You fight for 5-6 mins, then got 1-2 kills, but opponent managed to stabilize and survive until the end, maybe doing 1 kill back : Winner got 60, loser got 40 . Close match with a potentiel backflip, and a close victory with well played moves. Both teams are rewarded for a good fight.

- You fight for 1 min, and got 6 kills, then flag capped : winner got 20, loser got 10. Obviously it was either bad comp, bad gear or bad play, or a throw wich means nobody deserve much for that. No big effort, no big rewards.


But now you encourage everyone to fight their best to ease the grind, instead of just quitting since they lose all previous gains from bad luck/bad comp/etc.

"L’important dans ces olympiades, c’est moins d’y gagner que d’y prendre part" - Pierre De Coubertin, 1908
These are excellent suggestions for a rework of ALL REWARDS. Yes, continue to reward the winners more, but give a lot more to each based on how long the match lasts, that way close long matches are worth more than fast uneven matches. Forts, Cities, SCs etc. The fights that go the distance should reward BOTH SIDES more than the uneven fights do. Losing in an even match that goes the full distance (eg... 460/500 or 100/150I would think is more rewardable than being in a group that blasts someone 500-0 and is over in the minimal amount of time. Once you hit a certain tick, the losing side bag reduction is reduced or eliminated.

I think there is something already in place similar but the losing side still has too pronounced of a penalty... it is a disincentive where human nature typically requires an incentive - please tweak it to return most of the bag rolls or rewards for really close fights...
primary IB 8X, EN8X, WP7X, SL7X, KOTBS6X, and a bunch of under rr60 toons on order and destro with other classes.

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Koryu199X
Posts: 105

Re: [Ranked]Let's fix ranked games before they die.

Post#10 » Fri Jul 16, 2021 3:54 pm

Before on my tank I had an MMR of 1600 and we won quite a number of ranked but we also lost a few. I think there are a few issues, the first being skill, if you lose a ranked sc perhaps discussing why and then discussing how to counter what you lost against would be a way to level up the player base which is what destro needs. For example one ranked we were doing alright and matching the order group well but because we didn't focus on healers enough eventually after about 12 mins they managed to get one of our dps as they had over extended. Secondly, order before pre- season played a lot of tanks but also they played a good variety of classes in ranked, now in season two it's 2 knights, 2 slayers and 2 warrior priests. It's back to live prefabs which no offense is meant by this are requiring less "skill" as the classes being used are more forgiving if you make a mistake. Yes I did play a warrior priest and a slayer before anyone says anything. Lastly, the reward system offers very little in terms of incentive due to lack of pops and win/loss ratio. If there were loads of pops and a good mix of win/lose it might not be so bad but because your mmr takes a huge hit this also affects things. Yes I think it's fair that ranked should be for the good players. But as a whole we do need to support those that get beat to be better, even I think I can do better. But perhaps a look again at class balance is needed, if 2 wp are proving impossible to best then it needs to be assessed.

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