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[Ranked]Let's fix ranked games before they die.

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dalen
Developer
Posts: 619

Re: [Ranked]Let's fix ranked games before they die.

Post#81 » Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:36 pm

Caduceus wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 10:48 am The sad thing is, players want Ranked to succeed and many (including myself) have been waiting for a game mode like this for a long time. Now the issues are being ignored in a head-in-sand kind of way, and the group of players who were interested in Ranked is rapidly shrinking. If, Khorne forbid, Ranked were to die, I am sure it would be blamed on the lack of a community or players not being up to the challenge. I've said it before and I'll say it again: if that were to happen, it is because serious issues were ignored. The interest is and has been there, it is just being extinguished by stubbornness.

Lets hope that I am wrong, and that the replies that this thread has garnered from the devs are not representative of their actual views on Ranked. Maybe they are working on solutions in the background, but their response to this thread hasn't been indicative of that.
There's been many many patches over the last couple of months making improvements to the ranked SCs, many of those based on player feedback from multiple active players in ranked SCs. I can assure you that isn't a sign of "issues are being ignored in a head-in-sand kind of way".

At the moment we are in the middle of a season, so needless to say there's not going to be any big revamps of how the system works now. Those bigger revamps were done in the 1-2 months before the season started
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Caduceus
Posts: 653

Re: [Ranked]Let's fix ranked games before they die.

Post#82 » Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:42 pm

dalen wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:18 pm

Sure, it is only based on luck. But somehow the same players seem to be lucky in every season, and on multiple classes. While other players are perpetually unlucky.


Many play the system. They know when to queue and when not to queue. They queue together with their friends or players they know are strong. Essentially, they win a lot more because they gather outside information from their social circles, the Ranked discord server, etc. They stop spinning when the competition gets strong, and they will spin when it is easy. They will go so far as to put every player they consider bad on their friendlist and will not queue when they are online. All of this happens because the system allows it. It's possible to fish for easy matches, so people will.

Not everybody that performs well in Ranked does this to the same degree, but records that exceed win/loss ratios of above 3:1 are clearly suspect. Even 2:1 is pushing it. If the premise is that the match making system functions well and produces even matches, every match would theoretically be a 50/50.

Maybe you believe this is ok, and how Ranked should work. I think it is contrary to what Ranked should be. Not only does it give what I consider an unfair advantage to players who do this, it also disadvantages people who unknowingly are spinning with the odds stacked against them. (Probably a big part of the reason why so many people leave, in fact) Pretending it doesn't happen is just silly, and you make it even worse by pointing at these cherry picked records to suggest the class balance is fine. I genuinely find it hard to imagine someone who plays Ranked to make that argument.

Go ahead and play a non-meta class to 1000+ MMR without playing the system. See what you encounter.
Last edited by Caduceus on Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"I watched a snail crawl along the edge of a straight razor. That's my dream; that's my nightmare. Crawling, slithering, along the edge of a straight razor... and surviving." - Colonel Walter E. Kurtz

Caduceus
Posts: 653

Re: [Ranked]Let's fix ranked games before they die.

Post#83 » Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:46 pm

dalen wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:36 pm

I can assure you that isn't a sign of "issues are being ignored in a head-in-sand kind of way".


What else is someone supposed to make of your suggestion that "every class can get above 1000 MMR" and thus things are fine?
"I watched a snail crawl along the edge of a straight razor. That's my dream; that's my nightmare. Crawling, slithering, along the edge of a straight razor... and surviving." - Colonel Walter E. Kurtz

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Fenris78
Posts: 787

Re: [Ranked]Let's fix ranked games before they die.

Post#84 » Tue Jul 20, 2021 2:04 pm

Caduceus wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:42 pm Go ahead and play a non-meta class to 1000+ MMR without playing the system. See what you encounter.
Agreed.
Try to play with Engi / BW / Magus / rSW and get to 1k without gaming the system, and we can talk about how easy it is again.
Not playing with your friends the same match, not waiting for special time of the day or looking who is on discord.
Let me see your results after some dozens matches.

Cherrypicking the two strongest single-target classes, played by the highest rr ones (well-known Sorc and SH) to illustrate an "average difficulty to reach 1k" is not really helping your cause either, and only demonstrate the opposite, that you either have to play a class fitted for 6v6 meta, or a specific comp, or game the system to be able to consistently win on such ratios.

With a incentivizing system in place, wich should get you 10x the ppl queuing, no doubt you can sort better matches with more fairness, less concerns about balancing comps/classes, more spots for "small" players, while allowing good fights and without too much restriction, alleviating most of glaring issues we are currently facing.

While I understand plans are to collect data from the entire season and adjust later on, if you let the game mode in such a bad shape to start with, I doubt you can adjust enough to make more people interested back, in the medium to long term.
Who will want to queue solo again, knowing the sharks are already waiting for your blood to feed in ?

We hopefully can expect the "strong players" to get their stuff quickly and make room for the "average ones" who then may remotely enjoy this game mode without too much stress and pressure, but I know it's daydreaming... Gankers gonna gank, farmers gonna farm anyway, so better not be the farmed ones amongst the thirty people currently playing ranked...

Mergrim
Posts: 238

Re: [Ranked]Let's fix ranked games before they die.

Post#85 » Tue Jul 20, 2021 2:24 pm

Fenris78 wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 2:04 pm
Caduceus wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:42 pm Go ahead and play a non-meta class to 1000+ MMR without playing the system. See what you encounter.
Agreed.
Try to play with Engi / BW / Magus / rSW and get to 1k without gaming the system, and we can talk about how easy it is again.
Are you serious?:D I prefer to have good engi instead of any slayer from top 15(but only good one is Ticecchino)Kassdku,Dwoff not playing season2. Magius...you have seen Prometherion dmg? magius 600k slayer 200k, maybe its just flat dmg, but add any aoe and everything drop.
There is no place for rSW in ranked...you can try scout, but for SW you have decent assault spec. About BW no comment, not seen single good one. Hope Frozen make his bw and show all those ppl how to play.

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Opeteh
Posts: 41

Re: [Ranked]Let's fix ranked games before they die.

Post#86 » Tue Jul 20, 2021 2:37 pm

dalen wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:18 pm
Mergrim wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 3:00 pm So ... fix MMR system.
And what's a "fixed" system?
I don't know, was thinking about something... that make sense?
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Alubert
Posts: 323

Re: [Ranked]Let's fix ranked games before they die.

Post#87 » Tue Jul 20, 2021 2:40 pm

Mergrim wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 2:24 pm
Fenris78 wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 2:04 pm
Caduceus wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:42 pm Go ahead and play a non-meta class to 1000+ MMR without playing the system. See what you encounter.
Agreed.
Try to play with Engi / BW / Magus / rSW and get to 1k without gaming the system, and we can talk about how easy it is again.
Are you serious?:D I prefer to have good engi instead of any slayer from top 15(but only good one is Ticecchino)Kassdku,Dwoff not playing season2. Magius...you have seen Prometherion dmg? magius 600k slayer 200k, maybe its just flat dmg, but add any aoe and everything drop.
There is no place for rSW in ranked...you can try scout, but for SW you have decent assault spec. About BW no comment, not seen single good one. Hope Frozen make his bw and show all those ppl how to play.
You alredy have Mrglass on sorc/bw or Setriona sorc.
Hurub - Chopa
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Mergrim
Posts: 238

Re: [Ranked]Let's fix ranked games before they die.

Post#88 » Tue Jul 20, 2021 2:43 pm

Opeteh wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 2:37 pm
dalen wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:18 pm
Mergrim wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 3:00 pm So ... fix MMR system.
And what's a "fixed" system?
I don't know, was thinking about something... that make sense?
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That's why I want them to always add the same number of points for win / lose / draw. Win + 15 losses -10 draws + 0. 3 days ago I had a difficult 10 minute game, I won and +36 points, because we had a person with high mmr. Then another game, won after 1 minute ... 103 points.
Alubert wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 2:40 pm
Mergrim wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 2:24 pm
Fenris78 wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 2:04 pm
Agreed.
Try to play with Engi / BW / Magus / rSW and get to 1k without gaming the system, and we can talk about how easy it is again.
Are you serious?:D I prefer to have good engi instead of any slayer from top 15(but only good one is Ticecchino)Kassdku,Dwoff not playing season2. Magius...you have seen Prometherion dmg? magius 600k slayer 200k, maybe its just flat dmg, but add any aoe and everything drop.
There is no place for rSW in ranked...you can try scout, but for SW you have decent assault spec. About BW no comment, not seen single good one. Hope Frozen make his bw and show all those ppl how to play.
You alredy have Mrglass on sorc/bw or Setriona sorc.
I'm not sure, never played vs/with Mrglass. Setriona for me is just lucky teams pop. Frozen was very bad when he start playing ranked, but he improve a lot.

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BeautfulToad
Posts: 631

Re: [Ranked]Let's fix ranked games before they die.

Post#89 » Tue Jul 20, 2021 2:55 pm

dalen wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:36 pm At the moment we are in the middle of a season, so needless to say there's not going to be any big revamps of how the system works now. Those bigger revamps were done in the 1-2 months before the season started
I think this is important for people to consider. I remember a lot of people complained the devs took too long to bring out season 2, so let's not make this a "can't win whatever they do" type of thread.

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dalen
Developer
Posts: 619

Re: [Ranked]Let's fix ranked games before they die.

Post#90 » Tue Jul 20, 2021 2:59 pm

Mergrim wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 2:43 pm
Opeteh wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 2:37 pm
dalen wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:18 pm

And what's a "fixed" system?
I don't know, was thinking about something... that make sense?
Image
That's why I want them to always add the same number of points for win / lose / draw. Win + 15 losses -10 draws + 0. 3 days ago I had a difficult 10 minute game, I won and +36 points, because we had a person with high mmr. Then another game, won after 1 minute ... 103 points.
So you want a system that doesn't take into account how good enemy team you faced or if you had lower rated players on your team etc.

Seems like a lot worse system to me.
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