Series of suggestions, and dissapointed with 22/7/2021 patch balances. Tank SnB bubble boost suggestion.

We want to hear your thoughts and ideas.
Forum rules
Before posting on this forum, be sure to read the Terms of Use

Structured class balance suggestions belong in the Balance Proposal subforum. Class-related discussion in this section are considered as ongoing debates and ARE NOT reviewed for balance changes.
Auzor
Posts: 46

Series of suggestions, and dissapointed with 22/7/2021 patch balances. Tank SnB bubble boost suggestion.

Post#1 » Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:18 pm

Howdy.

Suggestions:
1) Visual: allow more customization for certain classes:
1.1: Magus disk: allow Magus the option of applying paints to his 'regular' disk.
1.2 Same for the 'Squig Armor' of the Melee Squigh Herder
1.3 and last but not least, same for the tank shields.
All are part of the visuals of the player character...
but every Magus disk looks the same (well, depending on rank a bit, but still); every 'Squig Armor' looks the same, and I feel it is rather unfair that SnB tanks don't seem to have the same support in terms of customization as other classes.
This is a bit destro focussed: I've not mentioned the White Lion's pet; from my view that is 'just' a pet's visual. Changing the colour e.g. would make it no longer a 'white' lion; what about Squigh Herder pets, or Magus/Engineer turrets etc. So, I just suggest to look at placer character customizations.

2) Tanks. And protection.
Suppose you do a scenario.
Healers are supposed to top the heals chart.
DPS the dps chart (or the kills/killing blows). (yes, things don't always work out; sometimes a tank can top the damage chart due to living longer and spamming AoE's. But, compare that to a freecasting AoE DPS and... the DPS should win)
So, tanks are for protection, right?
Unfortunately, the only tanks able of contesting top protection score typically, are Black Orc & SM. SM is better at it. This is imo, because these two tanks, bring party shields.
Healers instead often top protection.
So: increase the protection shield tanks offer to the group.

Proposal: buff the other tanks protection capabilities; to cover the party. This could require a tactic slot, and be tied to wielding a shield.
Chosen: Make 'Bane shield' available at a lower level, so it fits the tactic position. 'Dire Shielding' tactic: in addition to the current, make it also give a party-shield within 50 feet, 1.5 x as strong as SM's shield. (but on a 30s cooldown).
KotBS: 'Shield of the sun', 'Sunfury' tactic: now lowers the cooldown to 20s, and if wielding a shield, gives out a party-wide shield 1.5 x as strong as BO's. (80 feet range, just like BO). (lower cooldown: KotBS does not give a party-wide dmg return).
Black Guard: I propose swapping 'Shield or Rage' and 'Feeding on Weakness' for skill tree position. This also gives 'Loathing' tree a base hatred-spending ability btw.
Then, 'Terrifying Foe' tactic: Remove the 'Hateful Strike' part: increases your Toughness based on your hatred by 3% per 10 hatred, 5% if you're wearing a shield. (so you get this benefit even at range, no need to use your weakest ability, and it scales more smoothly. Pretty big boost for things like Holding the Line imo)
'Shielded by hate' tactic: becomes +10% block fixed (really should be, this high up the tree. Ironbreaker gets 10% block, AND 5% permanent dmg reduction), AND makes your 'Shield of Rage' party wide. (being this high, and the block buff: I wouldn't bother with making this part require a shield tbh).
Now these two tactics, are far more valid competition for the + parry tactic. (and you have only 4 tactic slots).
Ironbreaker: Last but not least among the tanks imo (so jealous of that +25% parry to oathfriend ability), we have IB. Here, his 'shield' ability, costs twice as much 'grudge' as BG's hatred, and only protects vs magical dmg. I would propose making this party-wide, on the condition of wielding a shield. Otherwise, I honestly don't know what tactic to tie it into. I would use 'Oath of Vengeance', but that's in the wrong tree.

3) Tank, Renown spending, and 'Trivial Blows'.
IMO, common RR spending advice goes 'Futile Strikes, then Melee/Healing/Magic/Ranged crit', with for some classes parry/block/disrupt etc thrown in (indeed, especially so for tanks).
'Trivial Blows' is a bit 'forgotten' imo, as without Futile Strikes you get drowned in critical hits; and many classes have bonusses that trigger if they crit; such as draining AP on a crit, giving out a DoT,..
Coding wise, it may not be feasible; or at least, not easy. But what if we made 'Trivial Blows' very attractive for tanks? Specifically, regarding guard dmg?
Currently, if a player is guarded and takes dmg, half the dmg goes to the tank.
If the player takes a crit, then it doesn't matter that the tank had 'futile strikes'. (correct me if I'm wrong)
What if, with 'Trivial Blows', the tank would still lower any critical 'guard' damage?
So, the base attack hits, and then for both the player hit, and the tank guarding, the crit dmg is calculated separately.
I still think, that Trivial Blows perhaps should cost a bit less than 'Futile Strikes'. 1 point less and watch the meta go wild. (4 - 8 - 12 - 15?)

On the subject of Trvial Blows and lowering crit damage:
The recent patch, changed BG's top SnB tree ability.
Not like SnB BG was so popular to begin with.
Suggestion: keep the change, but add:
For this duration, lowers the critical damage your party members take, by 5/10/15%.
Lowering crit chance, for 1 other player, is very much a random affair. Lowering critical damage, is guaranteed. (the numbers may even merit increasing. But for trying it out, it would show a much needed look at buffing SnB BG, also in terms of BG providing party-wide bonuses. Without becoming an 'aura' tank like Chosen/KotBS. Perhaps 10/15/20% lower crit damage taken for the party is warranted)
I also would like to see the hatred tresholds changed; from 30/60/90, to 25/50/75.

all stuff intended to make SnB more attractive.
Not as much to SM or BO; but BO lost cd reduction, and still has no single target punt.
SM 2-hander gets a better 'block channel', and it's baseline (career), + wispering winds for the group.
In short: I don't know how to make SnB (or Choppa and Board) more attractive for these...
the top middle tree ability could use a buff, I think there's a decent consensus on that; but it's never been changed so far.

Ads
Auzor
Posts: 46

Re: Series of suggestions, and dissapointed with 22/7/2021 patch balances. Tank SnB bubble boost suggestion.

Post#2 » Fri Jul 23, 2021 8:14 pm

Some more suggestions:

Magus/Engineer: both are in a bit of a tricky situation in terms of tactics.
Some things could really be, baseline, others ought to be changed.
With a view towards ranked included, I propose making the insta-turret tactic, something both Magus & Engineer have, by default.

BHA & rampage:
I have three rather different suggestions for BHA:
1) BHA, can stay damage wise etc as is, but must make the Shadow Warrior more vulnerable than currently in some way. I'm not talking about reducing the range of BHA. I'm talking about SW taking more damage, or receiving less healing.
2) BHA tactic changed:
a) max number of targets hit. (4?)
b) lower the damage of BHA & Spiral-fletched arrow by 20% (you'll see plenty of Mdps abilities hitting 1 extra target, at the cost of dmg...)
c) To compensate, add: Flame Arrow bypasses 50% of resistances.
d) 'Enchanted Arrows' in Path of the Scout: all 'Path of the Scout' abilities, gain 15% armor penetration. If you are Vengeful, this increases to 30%. (I think Festering Arrow should bypass 50% of resistances; not 100% taking into account it is also undefendable whilst Vengeful).
3) BHA tactic kept as is. But SW loses 'Pierce defenses'.
Here's all anti-avoidance SW has access to:
a) discerning offence tactic: 10% less likely your attacks are defended.
b) pierce defenses
c) Path of the scout: acid arrow ability: -10% block chance (& armor debuff).
Combined, I think it's a bit much, also taking into consideration how AoE BHA works (if it hits 1 individual, screw everyone else).
'Pierce defenses' is a stronger tactic for order than for destro, as destro only has Squig Herder for ballistic ranged dps.
Engineer still also has 'Pierce Defenses'.

Note that magus, can make Red Flickering Fire & Rend winds undefendable... hardly the most important abilities.



Rampage:
destro hates Rampage with a furious passion.
But it is justified; regardless of any (biased?...) devs opinion:
name 1 other ability, that is that low in the tree, that has such a powerful effect.
SW has BHA as the first tactic on the skirmish tree; Slayer has Rampage as first ability...
compare this to destro tree's, and I doubt you'll find many tactics or abilites that have such an impact, so low in the tree.

Proposal: Slayer & Choppa tree ability order switching:
Slayer Trollslayer path:
'Deep Wound' becomes the first ability. (a healing debuff is pretty handy for a DPS, especially a trollslayer
Rune of Absorption becomes the second ability
Rampage becomes the third ability; and is changed: 10s duration, if you are furious, then for another 10s your targets will have their chance to parry (not block) your attacks halved (if too difficult; for another 10s, your attacks have a 50% chance of not being parry-able). During rampage, your parry, dodge & disrupt chances are lowered by 10%, and you are 10% more likely to be critically hit.

Choppa:
Same thing: suggestion:
we lower the healing debuff to the first ability;
the Furious Chopping becomes the second ability; so Choppa has a 'self-heal' at the same height still as Slayer.
Keep on Chopping becomes the third ability, and should be given an extra effect; this could be increased crit chance, increased auto-attack speed, or making Choppa's attacks less likely to be defended (10% for 10s?)

Path of da Hitta: middle ability: 'tired already':
For a 20s cooldown, in addition to the cd increase, make it drain AP. Something like BG's ability: each ability costs an extra 20 AP.
Now the Slayer still has an AoE CD increase (which makes any spammable ability, no longer spammable), at same 'height'; but the Choppa's ability does offer an extra advantage.

For both Choppa & Slayer, the tactic of 'create a stack every 4s reducing fury drain cost', could be included baseline in the class.

Dabbart
Posts: 2248

Re: Series of suggestions, and dissapointed with 22/7/2021 patch balances. Tank SnB bubble boost suggestion.

Post#3 » Fri Jul 23, 2021 8:27 pm

"Unfortunately, the only tanks able of contesting top protection score typically, are Black Orc & SM. SM is better at it. This is imo, because these two tanks, bring party shields."

Stopped reading at that. If your healers are at top of protection, it was A, a total stomping, B, the tanks didn't use Challenge, Defensive Morales, and C, didn't swap guard. In short, the tank played like a DPS class that treats Guard like a George Forman Grill. Set it, and Forget it!

I have never seen a healer top an even decent tank on Protection during an actual fight between relatively balanced groups. Yes, shitty tanks perform shitty protection numbers. But I can post a dozen city SCs where no healer is anywhere close in protection. I don't save SC SSs though...

Don't balance from the PUG perspective. Hope the rest of your points made more sense.
Azarael wrote: It's only a nerf if you're bad.

(see, I can shitpost too!)
Secrets wrote: Kindly adjust your attitude to actually help the community and do not impose your will on it. You aren't as powerful as you think.

Auzor
Posts: 46

Re: Series of suggestions, and dissapointed with 22/7/2021 patch balances. Tank SnB bubble boost suggestion.

Post#4 » Sat Jul 24, 2021 8:58 am

Dabbart wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 8:27 pm "Unfortunately, the only tanks able of contesting top protection score typically, are Black Orc & SM. SM is better at it. This is imo, because these two tanks, bring party shields."

Stopped reading at that. If your healers are at top of protection, it was A, a total stomping, B, the tanks didn't use Challenge, Defensive Morales, and C, didn't swap guard. In short, the tank played like a DPS class that treats Guard like a George Forman Grill. Set it, and Forget it!

I have never seen a healer top an even decent tank on Protection during an actual fight between relatively balanced groups. Yes, shitty tanks perform shitty protection numbers. But I can post a dozen city SCs where no healer is anywhere close in protection. I don't save SC SSs though...

Don't balance from the PUG perspective. Hope the rest of your points made more sense.
A) a total stomping, confirmed.That's pretty much PUG life currently.
B) possibly
C) in warbands, I'd even settle for "set & forget guard" at this point. Repeatedly, I see multiple tanks, not guarding anyone.

I still think that the SM & BO have an easier time of getting high protection, thanks to the party-wide shields (with a relatively low cooldown).

Now, if one thing you disagree with, is enough to cause you to stop reading, you're probably borderline illiterate.
I consider it a very poor attitude you have there.

User avatar
CyunUnderis
Posts: 478
Contact:

Re: Series of suggestions, and dissapointed with 22/7/2021 patch balances. Tank SnB bubble boost suggestion.

Post#5 » Sat Jul 24, 2021 3:00 pm

I don't think this is a serious suggestion to add group protection for the other tanks because players are not using the good skills (Challenge, Guard, M2) at the right moment. Some people do not read or understand the skills. That's all.

Good tanks that already know how to use theirs skills will be over performing with a group bubble.

Also, I think (don't know if this is still true) bubble skill blocks critical damage. And with 2 tanks, 2 healers , the party gonna be really hard to kill.

User avatar
Naelar
Posts: 296

Re: Series of suggestions, and dissapointed with 22/7/2021 patch balances. Tank SnB bubble boost suggestion.

Post#6 » Sat Jul 24, 2021 4:06 pm

Focus less on finishing at the top of the board and more on winning.

Cqengi
Suspended
Posts: 48

Re: Series of suggestions, and dissapointed with 22/7/2021 patch balances. Tank SnB bubble boost suggestion.

Post#7 » Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:23 am

Dabbart wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 8:27 pm "Unfortunately, the only tanks able of contesting top protection score typically, are Black Orc & SM. SM is better at it. This is imo, because these two tanks, bring party shields."

Stopped reading at that. If your healers are at top of protection, it was A, a total stomping, B, the tanks didn't use Challenge, Defensive Morales, and C, didn't swap guard. In short, the tank played like a DPS class that treats Guard like a George Forman Grill. Set it, and Forget it!

I have never seen a healer top an even decent tank on Protection during an actual fight between relatively balanced groups. Yes, shitty tanks perform shitty protection numbers. But I can post a dozen city SCs where no healer is anywhere close in protection. I don't save SC SSs though...

Don't balance from the PUG perspective. Hope the rest of your points made more sense.
You didn't miss much else after you stopped reading

User avatar
Aethilmar
Posts: 634

Re: Series of suggestions, and dissapointed with 22/7/2021 patch balances. Tank SnB bubble boost suggestion.

Post#8 » Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:40 am

In "low pressure" damage environments healers can and often do have top protection due to detaunt and shields. I also believe cleanses count as protection for heals too.

Also worth noting that SMs can sometimes outperform (mediocre) heals in healing in these "low pressure" environments as well.

But, yeah, generally speaking not a real worry for top scoreboard. Although I admit is can be rather annoying to be doing your job as a tank and still lose on protection just because of the lack of power and/or incompetence of your opposition. :P

Ads

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Ahrefs [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot] and 12 guests