Recent Topics

Ads

RvR, AAO and incentive for actual fights

We want to hear your thoughts and ideas.

Moderators: Developer, Management, Community Management

Forum rules
Before posting on this forum, be sure to read the Terms of Use

Structured class balance suggestions belong in the Balance Proposal subforum. Class-related discussion in this section are considered as ongoing debates and ARE NOT reviewed for balance changes.
mynban
Posts: 84

RvR, AAO and incentive for actual fights

Post#1 » Mon Aug 30, 2021 3:48 am

Current state of RvR is quite boring, player behavior runs on a simple algorithm of 'avoiding equal/bigger fights and chasing (zerging) smaller enemy groups'. And the reason is simple; it is more rewarding to do so. Game does not reward sieging and winning a keep with equal AAO, any more than zerging it with bigger numbers leading to 60% AAO. Players literally refuse to attempt a siege unless enemy is outnumbered. And current AAO rr bonus system is failing to incentivize fights for underdog either, because all it leads to is 6mans farming solo runners and strays; instead of actually facing equal or bigger groups.

There are plans for spreading the battle to map, supposedly for promoting for more even fights; but it is not hard to see how that will simply make having bigger numbers even more advantageous, leading to even more zerging behaviour. For any change to have a positive impact game needs to address two things;
  • Incentivize players who will face a one-sided outnumbered battle to actually join the fight
  • In terms of rewards, make it more appealing to chase equal/bigger fights rather than zerging
With that in mind here is my suggestion;
  • Active zones accumulate rewards (medallions/shards/bags/bonus rr etc.) based on kills(*). Accumulation is also amplified based on AAO; zerging side gets smaller addition, underdog side gets bigger
  • Once zone is locked, total accumulated rewards are distributed to players based on their contribution
  • Player contribution (for getting accumulated rewards) is significantly reduced for kills via outnumbering battles, and it is significantly increased for kills fighting bigger groups.
All of that idea is based on concept of 'what kind of player behavior that mechanics would lead to?'. It would lead to;
  • People running along zerg would feel more incentivized to run with a well organized but smaller group instead.
  • Underpopulated side would want to take on and fight bigger number zerging enemies
  • AAO now translates into better accumulated rewards (that is distributed among fewer people as well), and is a real incentive to join a one-sided fight.
  • People wont choose quick zone flips over ones where there is proper resistance (in current system reward is same for both, so people see it as waste of time for same reward)
People can still stick with zerg to get zone lock rewards; but there is now the choice to go fight for a zone where your side is not outnumbering to benefit more from accumulating rewards. All of the idea is about how to steer player behavior towards desired competitive direction, based on how rewards system works.

Ads
Strakar
Posts: 76

Re: RvR, AAO and incentive for actual fights

Post#2 » Mon Aug 30, 2021 5:04 am

Good proposal, addresses aspects of current aao system that don't have the intended effect. Item rewards should increase as zone pop reaches equilibrium, for both sides.

I logged out after almost 2 hours in praag today going nowhere. It's either pve keeps for rewards or just tug of war between war camps, and as OP mentioned, nobody sieges without numbers advantage. There's little reward in the latter scenario even though more fun... marginally for a pug on the losing side of most engagements.

As another post said though, campaign relies on zone flips and a stalemate stops that. Mechanics may need to be tweaked to win sieges with closer to equal numbers. Especially for destro, who have terrible fort win percentage and can be bullied more so than order in equal strength keep engagement.

User avatar
zulnam
Posts: 594

Re: RvR, AAO and incentive for actual fights

Post#3 » Mon Aug 30, 2021 8:22 am

Spoiler:
Image
Let me start by saying that your post is clearly written from the perspective of someone who almost exclusively pugs. If you were in organised warbands you would know that equal/bigger fights is where it's at, and that even a mediocre warband that has MA, guards, 2/2/2 and discord comms will simply cut through a pug blob like knife through butter with a well-executed pincer move. A well geared, experienced, warband on discord can withstand even up to three times their numbers of pugs. I've seen this. I've done this.

As for rewards, oWBs will guarantee you more rewards since your kills increase significantly. More RP, more meds, increased chances of gold bags.

Now when it comes to sieging with equal numbers, there are three options:
- one side has two or more oWBs which coordinate movement and have a chance to take over the keep, success of which squarely depends on if the other side also has oWBs or not, since they're the only ones interested in posterns;
- the pugs have managed to come up with the collective big brain understanding that the forces are equal in strength and that it has become a war of attrition (rarely lasts long)
- some turkey pops a ram and runs away with it, doesn't inform /1 and /2, gets killed, loses ram, people start logging because they don't want to waste any more time, no more equal numbers, zone locked by opposing faction, moving on

The war of attrition is not a bug. It's not a design flaw. It's common sense. Even with strong warbands and discord and everything, sieging an enemy with equal numbers will always be a massive challenge, because of funnelling requiring coordinated pushes (again, not a defect). Sometimes even with oWBs you just can't break the defenders and you lose the siege. It's normal that then the attacking forces dissipate, it's called morale. It's fine, it happens. Even if you lose a siege and zone, as an oWB you still get more fun, more kills and more loot.

But people don't want organised play because they're afraid they'll be less cool with the ladies if they play 2 hours with discord instead of 2 hours listening to the hit disco songs of 2004. So pugs blob, which wouldn't be so bad if they didn't also write on the forum about how the pug life is hard.

This is a competitive team game. You need to put a little more effort than just log in and move to a zone to get a reward. Doing the same thing but with 120% aao doesn't mean you deserve to be showered in meds (that 120% btw is the increase for RP, that is your reward for being underdog).

But maybe you don't like warbands cause you can't express yourself (ie: non-meta spec). Ok. Form 6-man groups and start guerilla fighting. Harass BOs, block route to siege for the late player. People underestimate the high rewards a 6-man can get from running in a zone and harassing the enemy, win or lose. And best part is you don't even need discord for that; it would be mediocre sure, but 6 people are much easier to coordinate over chat than 24. And thanks to all the people going in 1 at a time (and then complaining on the forums about the enemy zerging) you get plenty of kills.

Or log and do something else, relax, drink some tea, take a walk.

Just stop posting forum threads about "how to fix the game", please.
SW, Kotbs, IB, Slayer, Mara, SH, BG

snackeyboy
Posts: 31

Re: RvR, AAO and incentive for actual fights

Post#4 » Mon Aug 30, 2021 8:54 am

Playing almost exlusively smallscale.

Oftentimes numbers in zones lead to mindless zerging and pretty much stalemates. This leads to good fights beeing harder to find and the zone becoming more dull in general.

People refuse to start sieges on their own, but are willing to follow the ram like lemmings, whenever you put it up.

Sometimes i do exactly that, spawning a ram with a 6man, running zig zag patterns across the map to unite people and then lead it to the enemy keep to initiate a siege and to get some diversity in fights / rvr.

Whenever it works, its great. Whenever it doesnt work i can garantuee that i have an army of upset players tossing insults at me, accusing me of supporting the enemy faction, or eaven threatening me with bans.

All in all smallscale rvr is the thing i enjoy the most. Trying to change / mix up mechanics is something that can, or cannot work. Whatever it takes to male zones more interesting im down to test / try.

That said, take the above said into account and that it will require propably more than simply a mechanical change, but also a change in peoples mindset.

User avatar
Toshutkidup
Posts: 492
Contact:

Re: RvR, AAO and incentive for actual fights

Post#5 » Mon Aug 30, 2021 8:57 am

zulnam wrote:
Mon Aug 30, 2021 8:22 am

Just stop posting forum threads about "how to fix the game", please.
Generally speaking except for few things,I don’t have any big issues with the game in general. It’s the playerbase I have issues with.
First RR90 Slayer working towards the top of the mountain. NOT Full Sov, NO Bloodlord , Riposte spec and I still solo

Twitch:https://www.twitch.tv/toshutkidup
My Youtube http://www.youtube.com/c/Toshutkidup

mynban
Posts: 84

Re: RvR, AAO and incentive for actual fights

Post#6 » Mon Aug 30, 2021 9:01 am

Zulnam, you sound like someone who is loving an idea of what the game should be, while being completely blind to its reality.

User avatar
zulnam
Posts: 594

Re: RvR, AAO and incentive for actual fights

Post#7 » Mon Aug 30, 2021 9:06 am

I sound very confusing :lol:.
SW, Kotbs, IB, Slayer, Mara, SH, BG

User avatar
Toshutkidup
Posts: 492
Contact:

Re: RvR, AAO and incentive for actual fights

Post#8 » Mon Aug 30, 2021 9:11 am

When you have 100+ Order attacking a empty zone 0 star keep and 100+Destro attacking a different zone 0 star keep both attacking opposing keeps at same time all in name of “bags” instead of fighting Of each other .. that’s a player issue IMO.
First RR90 Slayer working towards the top of the mountain. NOT Full Sov, NO Bloodlord , Riposte spec and I still solo

Twitch:https://www.twitch.tv/toshutkidup
My Youtube http://www.youtube.com/c/Toshutkidup

Ads
User avatar
wonshot
Posts: 888

Re: RvR, AAO and incentive for actual fights

Post#9 » Mon Aug 30, 2021 9:24 am

The way I see it, oRvR is for "everyone". With that I mean, it is the content where everyplaystyle fits. You can be solo roaming looking for duels or 1vX. Run with a pockethealer as a duo, run in smaller group of friends. 6man-kite-into-pve party. Run a closed but not full guild warband. or go full warband or even alliance overflow coop.

oRvR is the bracket where everything fits, you can break the game by overstacking something wether it being stealthers, ranged moraledrops, snares, dots or whatever have you.

If this bracket is for everyone, then the biggest issue would be, that it is mostly catering towards the two extremes on the spectrum when it comes to rewards. either the 400 aao hunting, or the zerging. Everything inbetween is feeling rather lackluster in terms of renown gains, medal/shard and to some extend bag accumalations.

One example we have seen over the last couple of months, is when Destro have 100% aao in fortress defences. The AAO is good if you secure any kills, but the actual AAO doesnt help you get the kills and stand your ground massively outnumbered :roll: So often times it spirals and fewer and fewer attend and show up to defend because they know its a lost cause with no rewards.
Example in numbers: 100+ orderlings attacking a destro fort with say 60 defenders. No way to defend in those odds. And the AAO will give you bigger chuncks of renown per kill but you might only get like 10 kills during the stage3 push. So you end up getting less renown and rewards, than the outnumbering zerging realm who will get their renown from killing lord while clearing the defenders.

In stalemate zones if there is around 20-60% aao you can have good roaming actions/sieges, because there are enemies to fight and targetrich enviroment and in the case you get outnumbered in a skirmish you can go out again and try to find some realmates to tag along with to even the odds if the enemy run in bigger groups.
but the rewards are getting split in many-ways in this case, the medal drops are even more rare and stalemates become this 20rp per kill grind. So why do people do it?

Because the game does not reward you enough for being a 12man or 24man and roam around doing your own thing, even at that bracket are you getting those 20-50rp per kill. And the zonemechanics are pretty much not pushing the players to split out either. the whole campaign to make #BOsmatterAgain backfired big time getting objective rp nerfed in the hopes fighting on BOs will make the players put more importance on them :shock:

The current oRvR mechanics and systems are pushing the playerbase to have this overly zergy behaviour, because other playstyles are not rewarding or giving enough incentive to break off the zerg and stand on your own feet. AAO being tied to collision and being more local could be a way of splitting the rewards and action out in the active zone :idea:
Tieing Battleobjectives to the active keepsiege would make the outnumbering force spend and split some of their forces into the rest of the zone instead of funneling everyone to the besieged keep and stand mounted looking at 4 players playing a ram-minigame, when they could be defending/captureing BOs elsewhere and fighting over control.

Yes the player behaviour is pretty bad on RoR when it actually comes to people wanting to pvp, but that might very well be a result of too casual catering systems implimented over too many years leading to Nascar, afking, and goldbag-focused player activities.
Bombling RR 91
Alts:
Gombling 82 mSH[BiS] Notbombling 80 Sorc [BiS] Powerhouse 65 Zealot [vanq] Chopling 70 Choppa[invader]
Bombthebuilder 82 Engi[6DefSove]Orderling 65 WP[onslaught] TheBombMan 70 Knight [invader] Bombing 66 SL [invader]

mynban
Posts: 84

Re: RvR, AAO and incentive for actual fights

Post#10 » Mon Aug 30, 2021 9:38 am

My suggestion is simple in its nature by addressing 'why people do what they do'. And we can't change human behavior.

When people have a choice of;
A. keep fighting an evenly defended zone for hours
B. go flip an empty zone where you PvDoor in 20min

And tell them rewards are the same (if not better for latter).. at that point it is not too much of a wonder why we end up with the situation we do. I wish people were perfect, and that they would play the game for intrinsic rewards.. but people are people. And there is no game without the people. We can't predend game pop going below a certain treshold doesn't end up with a spiral of less activity leading to even less pop.

I agree with bombling, we get the current playstyle simply because other approaches are not rewarding. And localization of AAO is pretty much what I was trying to formulate, but with more tangible rewards.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: regularspecial, Tonkatruk, Xirucio and 30 guests