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Is endgame PvP just zerging and keep-takes?

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GamesBond
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Re: Is endgame PvP just zerging and keep-takes?

Post#31 » Tue Sep 21, 2021 7:09 am

xoonerfree wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:12 am
GamesBond wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:10 am
browlciba wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:58 am I was really excited to level up to 40, get some decent gear and jump into RvR and enjoy some 6v6, roaming, group fight, small fights, etc. - is this possible or is it so rare that my real only option is to zerg surf?

I get that this is a team based PvP game and I fully appreciate that. I'm just looking to engage in the small team scale side of things, less the big team side.
There are guilds that engage in small scale, roaming, premade SCs and avoid zerging. In this game you simply need to be with the people who have the same mindset as yours in order to enjoy it.

If you love hardcore warband plays, you need to join a guild that offers that. Casual premades won't do that.
If you love casual warband plays, you cannot be part of an organized guild and then simply losing your way or not following proper commands, bombs, etc.
If you're looking for constant small scale/SC premades, you will need a guild that do these.

There are plenty of guilds you can choose from, but there's always a different option then zerging. Now at the end of the day, there's one enemy keep on the map and once it is sieged, it becomes the most important hot spot on that whole map, which means you will need to join the zerg to push in and that's normal. You can't really push a keep with a group so what I mean to say is that it will always come down to pushing zones to get the bags, and pushing the zones requires the keep to be conquered, which requires a decent number of attackers vs defenders. It is how the game is designed, it is how the campaign moves forward.
Let community answer these questions please who don't have bias.
I play every night for several hours after work, I play on the weekends for 12 hours sometimes. I engage with all contents (except PvE cause I don't like it) and I participate in several warbands and their leaders know that. I'm not away from the game so you could say I am biased. I know what the game goes through often, I know the flaws of the team and the community as much as I know their strongest traits. It's not my job to blindly serve the team, my job relies in perfectly balancing what the team wants and what the team should do for the sake of the community. It's hard but not impossible and thankfully many team members are becoming more and more flexible, from Management to GMs.

I'm entitled to share my honest opinion as much as you are. If you don't like it or if you consider everything I say is biased then that's your problem really.. I'm sure other people have experienced how transparent I am and the team members already know how much pressure I put on them when it comes to the community. Lastly, you can check my posts on MMORPG subreddit, I answer a lot of questions submitted by people who wish to try the game; I never lie to them or waste their time installing the game, I always share what the game would be like in their perspective.

That being said, I still stress on my initial post which says that you could find and play the content that you desire if you are with the right people.

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Stahn123
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Re: Is endgame PvP just zerging and keep-takes?

Post#32 » Sat Oct 02, 2021 3:46 am

LOL. These comments are great. Glad to see the community finally coming out and saying things in volume that force a response.

The Devs and formers basically just said they play Order or have no problem with the imbalances here and to leave if we don't like it. So, does that mean you all have no intention to fix what we, and now you, all know to be issues? There have been many ideas and suggestions given and posted. They aren't always meant to be taken as gospel or done exactly, it's to generate ideas and possible solutions. They're trying to help.

Destro chat has, as of lately, been full of defeatism. They are leaving. There will be no Destro soon. There is already talk of boycotts of forts, city, etc. Most already don't show up to defend a keep because it's pointless. They can NEVER go on offense, and that is a morale killer. No quests or events give credit for defense, or attempted defense, so they'll never obtain any of those rewards. Even if every single Destro on the server 16+ was in the lakes, they'd still be outnumbered. Last night they tried to take a fort in TM while Order had 40% AAO, within 10 minutes and before the first wall went down, that turned into 60% AAO for Destro. Destro players gave up immediately and left. Order then went on to push several zones almost uncontested. There is a HUGE problem here with population, and until it's addressed, you will continue to see Destro players leaving and no "good fights" will be had. It will eventually become boycotts and abandonment. How bad does it have to get? Apparently according to the team on this thread, much.

Order guilds swap to Destro and push for the 5 star Altdorf, during the 2nd fort attack they begin to log off and let the PUG finish the Lord, they then log on their Order main and steamroll all the Destro because they're gear isn't anywhere near to par and they have less experience in the city. This results in full gold bags and easy wins for Order. It's the ONLY TIME Altdorf even comes under siege. The devs know this, and have stated here they don't mind the unbalance, and if you don't like it to leave.

Now, perhaps we should take up them up on their "leave" option? Leave rvr, leave Destro, leave them starved for pvp until they fix the problems they've created for themselves? So far I haven't seen a post mention a Destro class in the Dev comments here that they personally play. They obviously don't play in the off hours as Destro or we wouldn't be having this conversation at all. Of course, if there is a reply to this at all, they will claim the contrary, but you don't see that volunteered first, meaning it's not what they are playing currently or recently. The whole "no bias" thing has to be shown after all, but the admittance to unbalance and the intent to not fix it says that it's known about but they just don't care to address, fix, or otherwise acknowledge it. So, lets do what they said. Let's leave. Give them nothing. No fights, no renown, no SC, no ranked, no rvr. Just pve dungeons, get gear, get unlocks, do all the K8P quests. Stock up potions for when the fix eventually comes, or just join Order and get bags. See the other side of the game for a while without any danger, you'll get to see the keeps and the battles you never get to experience. Just a few thoughts, after all we are all entitled to our opinions as GamesBond said, right? So, lets give our opinions and do what it takes to generate the fix we've been waiting months for.

TreefAM
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Re: Is endgame PvP just zerging and keep-takes?

Post#33 » Sat Oct 02, 2021 8:19 am

Stahn123 wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 3:46 am LOL. These comments are great. Glad to see the community finally coming out and saying things in volume that force a response.

The Devs and formers basically just said they play Order or have no problem with the imbalances here and to leave if we don't like it. So, does that mean you all have no intention to fix what we, and now you, all know to be issues? There have been many ideas and suggestions given and posted. They aren't always meant to be taken as gospel or done exactly, it's to generate ideas and possible solutions. They're trying to help.

Destro chat has, as of lately, been full of defeatism. They are leaving. There will be no Destro soon. There is already talk of boycotts of forts, city, etc. Most already don't show up to defend a keep because it's pointless. They can NEVER go on offense, and that is a morale killer. No quests or events give credit for defense, or attempted defense, so they'll never obtain any of those rewards. Even if every single Destro on the server 16+ was in the lakes, they'd still be outnumbered. Last night they tried to take a fort in TM while Order had 40% AAO, within 10 minutes and before the first wall went down, that turned into 60% AAO for Destro. Destro players gave up immediately and left. Order then went on to push several zones almost uncontested. There is a HUGE problem here with population, and until it's addressed, you will continue to see Destro players leaving and no "good fights" will be had. It will eventually become boycotts and abandonment. How bad does it have to get? Apparently according to the team on this thread, much.

Order guilds swap to Destro and push for the 5 star Altdorf, during the 2nd fort attack they begin to log off and let the PUG finish the Lord, they then log on their Order main and steamroll all the Destro because they're gear isn't anywhere near to par and they have less experience in the city. This results in full gold bags and easy wins for Order. It's the ONLY TIME Altdorf even comes under siege. The devs know this, and have stated here they don't mind the unbalance, and if you don't like it to leave.

Now, perhaps we should take up them up on their "leave" option? Leave rvr, leave Destro, leave them starved for pvp until they fix the problems they've created for themselves? So far I haven't seen a post mention a Destro class in the Dev comments here that they personally play. They obviously don't play in the off hours as Destro or we wouldn't be having this conversation at all. Of course, if there is a reply to this at all, they will claim the contrary, but you don't see that volunteered first, meaning it's not what they are playing currently or recently. The whole "no bias" thing has to be shown after all, but the admittance to unbalance and the intent to not fix it says that it's known about but they just don't care to address, fix, or otherwise acknowledge it. So, lets do what they said. Let's leave. Give them nothing. No fights, no renown, no SC, no ranked, no rvr. Just pve dungeons, get gear, get unlocks, do all the K8P quests. Stock up potions for when the fix eventually comes, or just join Order and get bags. See the other side of the game for a while without any danger, you'll get to see the keeps and the battles you never get to experience. Just a few thoughts, after all we are all entitled to our opinions as GamesBond said, right? So, lets give our opinions and do what it takes to generate the fix we've been waiting months for.
Why don't you make a warband and try to fight instead of typing these walls of text on the forums?
Order zergs, water is wet, what's new? Destro literally have to revolve around FMJ holding their hands because the pugs just want easy zones locks and bags like the order zerg does, destro leaders such as Ocara struggle to make a full 24 because the lazy pugs would rather join a open wb and be carried than join something that can fight.

Also I keep hearing this "Order guilds log destro and push Altdorf" but whenever I ask which guilds this is, people are mute no matter where I ask.
It's just the classic "XREALMER RUIN GAME" **** that pugs cry about when they get stomped because half of them were afk before logging off.
The guilds that actively xrealmed to fight on either side are long gone or reduced to a couple of people so even if they came out they wouldn't push anything with their numbers.
Which are these mighty xrealmer guilds that control when Altdorf is getting pushed?

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zgolec
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Re: Is endgame PvP just zerging and keep-takes?

Post#34 » Sat Oct 02, 2021 8:44 am

ravezaar wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:23 am u should never ever get a reward if u NOT in the Zone when it flips.
Thats zerg promoting right there... also... "Awesome" idea to not get anything after few hours in a zone and contributing greatly but it flips when ya already off... yea. Splendid.
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Stahn123
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Re: Is endgame PvP just zerging and keep-takes?

Post#35 » Sat Oct 02, 2021 8:55 am

TreefAM wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 8:19 am
Stahn123 wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 3:46 am LOL. These comments are great. Glad to see the community finally coming out and saying things in volume that force a response.

The Devs and formers basically just said they play Order or have no problem with the imbalances here and to leave if we don't like it. So, does that mean you all have no intention to fix what we, and now you, all know to be issues? There have been many ideas and suggestions given and posted. They aren't always meant to be taken as gospel or done exactly, it's to generate ideas and possible solutions. They're trying to help.

Destro chat has, as of lately, been full of defeatism. They are leaving. There will be no Destro soon. There is already talk of boycotts of forts, city, etc. Most already don't show up to defend a keep because it's pointless. They can NEVER go on offense, and that is a morale killer. No quests or events give credit for defense, or attempted defense, so they'll never obtain any of those rewards. Even if every single Destro on the server 16+ was in the lakes, they'd still be outnumbered. Last night they tried to take a fort in TM while Order had 40% AAO, within 10 minutes and before the first wall went down, that turned into 60% AAO for Destro. Destro players gave up immediately and left. Order then went on to push several zones almost uncontested. There is a HUGE problem here with population, and until it's addressed, you will continue to see Destro players leaving and no "good fights" will be had. It will eventually become boycotts and abandonment. How bad does it have to get? Apparently according to the team on this thread, much.

Order guilds swap to Destro and push for the 5 star Altdorf, during the 2nd fort attack they begin to log off and let the PUG finish the Lord, they then log on their Order main and steamroll all the Destro because they're gear isn't anywhere near to par and they have less experience in the city. This results in full gold bags and easy wins for Order. It's the ONLY TIME Altdorf even comes under siege. The devs know this, and have stated here they don't mind the unbalance, and if you don't like it to leave.

Now, perhaps we should take up them up on their "leave" option? Leave rvr, leave Destro, leave them starved for pvp until they fix the problems they've created for themselves? So far I haven't seen a post mention a Destro class in the Dev comments here that they personally play. They obviously don't play in the off hours as Destro or we wouldn't be having this conversation at all. Of course, if there is a reply to this at all, they will claim the contrary, but you don't see that volunteered first, meaning it's not what they are playing currently or recently. The whole "no bias" thing has to be shown after all, but the admittance to unbalance and the intent to not fix it says that it's known about but they just don't care to address, fix, or otherwise acknowledge it. So, lets do what they said. Let's leave. Give them nothing. No fights, no renown, no SC, no ranked, no rvr. Just pve dungeons, get gear, get unlocks, do all the K8P quests. Stock up potions for when the fix eventually comes, or just join Order and get bags. See the other side of the game for a while without any danger, you'll get to see the keeps and the battles you never get to experience. Just a few thoughts, after all we are all entitled to our opinions as GamesBond said, right? So, lets give our opinions and do what it takes to generate the fix we've been waiting months for.
Why don't you make a warband and try to fight instead of typing these walls of text on the forums?
Order zergs, water is wet, what's new? Destro literally have to revolve around FMJ holding their hands because the pugs just want easy zones locks and bags like the order zerg does, destro leaders such as Ocara struggle to make a full 24 because the lazy pugs would rather join a open wb and be carried than join something that can fight.

Also I keep hearing this "Order guilds log destro and push Altdorf" but whenever I ask which guilds this is, people are mute no matter where I ask.
It's just the classic "XREALMER RUIN GAME" **** that pugs cry about when they get stomped because half of them were afk before logging off.
The guilds that actively xrealmed to fight on either side are long gone or reduced to a couple of people so even if they came out they wouldn't push anything with their numbers.
Which are these mighty xrealmer guilds that control when Altdorf is getting pushed?
You should go get your eyes checked. Your vision and ability to read is awful. I already addressed every point you tried to make here minus name dropping. Oh, and don't skimp on the glasses, you need them. Badly.

TreefAM
Posts: 676

Re: Is endgame PvP just zerging and keep-takes?

Post#36 » Sat Oct 02, 2021 9:29 am

Lmao sure all I see here is a random destro pug whining randomly why destro isn't zerging anymore.
And please people like you couldn't give names even if it wasn't under the rule of "naming and shaming" because you know **** and are trying to make an excuse.
Try organizing instead of crying MUH ZERG but it's easier to whine on the forums like order did few months ago and it's always the same ****.

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Re: Is endgame PvP just zerging and keep-takes?

Post#37 » Sat Oct 02, 2021 10:32 am

The responses in this thread are all over the place, but as far as zerging is concerned that is players and realm leaders responsibility. We saw about 3 years ago a agreement over realms to not zerg and zerging stopped. So clearly not game related. It is true some changes have reduced tools for a smaller group to wipe a larger group but that’s another tale.

The rest of the random bile in this thread are just strange. How can anyone even think of looking negatively on the cities, even if you don’t visit them, care for them etc. you should respect the work that went into them and the desire of a lot of ppl to see and be able to interact with them. This does not even cover the potential use of them in rvr . Respect ppl work and effort that is given freely to realize this universe.

The balance situation as far as population is concerned is in itself not a issue, it’s player choice to pick a side, but in my opinion the last 6months of changes probably is driving the population swing to order. We have seen 1:1 population correlation with buffs and nerfs. This year there has been a focus on Destro nerfing, justified or not is another thread but it drives the population imbalance.

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oaliaen
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Re: Is endgame PvP just zerging and keep-takes?

Post#38 » Sat Oct 02, 2021 5:47 pm

Ye fluf..but ppl leave and ppl come..The game should had done something to stop it. Cause depending on ppl, it never will.
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wargrimnir
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Re: Is endgame PvP just zerging and keep-takes?

Post#39 » Sat Oct 02, 2021 6:43 pm

Stahn123 wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 3:46 am LOL. These comments are great. Glad to see the community finally coming out and saying things in volume that force a response.

The Devs and formers basically just said they play Order or have no problem with the imbalances here and to leave if we don't like it. So, does that mean you all have no intention to fix what we, and now you, all know to be issues? There have been many ideas and suggestions given and posted. They aren't always meant to be taken as gospel or done exactly, it's to generate ideas and possible solutions. They're trying to help.

Destro chat has, as of lately, been full of defeatism. They are leaving. There will be no Destro soon. There is already talk of boycotts of forts, city, etc. Most already don't show up to defend a keep because it's pointless. They can NEVER go on offense, and that is a morale killer. No quests or events give credit for defense, or attempted defense, so they'll never obtain any of those rewards. Even if every single Destro on the server 16+ was in the lakes, they'd still be outnumbered. Last night they tried to take a fort in TM while Order had 40% AAO, within 10 minutes and before the first wall went down, that turned into 60% AAO for Destro. Destro players gave up immediately and left. Order then went on to push several zones almost uncontested. There is a HUGE problem here with population, and until it's addressed, you will continue to see Destro players leaving and no "good fights" will be had. It will eventually become boycotts and abandonment. How bad does it have to get? Apparently according to the team on this thread, much.

Order guilds swap to Destro and push for the 5 star Altdorf, during the 2nd fort attack they begin to log off and let the PUG finish the Lord, they then log on their Order main and steamroll all the Destro because they're gear isn't anywhere near to par and they have less experience in the city. This results in full gold bags and easy wins for Order. It's the ONLY TIME Altdorf even comes under siege. The devs know this, and have stated here they don't mind the unbalance, and if you don't like it to leave.

Now, perhaps we should take up them up on their "leave" option? Leave rvr, leave Destro, leave them starved for pvp until they fix the problems they've created for themselves? So far I haven't seen a post mention a Destro class in the Dev comments here that they personally play. They obviously don't play in the off hours as Destro or we wouldn't be having this conversation at all. Of course, if there is a reply to this at all, they will claim the contrary, but you don't see that volunteered first, meaning it's not what they are playing currently or recently. The whole "no bias" thing has to be shown after all, but the admittance to unbalance and the intent to not fix it says that it's known about but they just don't care to address, fix, or otherwise acknowledge it. So, lets do what they said. Let's leave. Give them nothing. No fights, no renown, no SC, no ranked, no rvr. Just pve dungeons, get gear, get unlocks, do all the K8P quests. Stock up potions for when the fix eventually comes, or just join Order and get bags. See the other side of the game for a while without any danger, you'll get to see the keeps and the battles you never get to experience. Just a few thoughts, after all we are all entitled to our opinions as GamesBond said, right? So, lets give our opinions and do what it takes to generate the fix we've been waiting months for.
Nothing GB said had anything to do with the terrible biased take you've got going on here. Development does not bow to one side or the other, balance does not exist to tip the scales. This is very directly addressed if you read the stickied posts in the balance proposal section of the forums. It's not that "we don't mind the unbalance" it's more that it's hardly our responsibility to make sure each realm has competent leaders that can lead effectively. This is a cycle we've seen repeat on both realms. It's not something we address directly to tip the scales, despite the outcry from people both blaming and begging us to be biased.

Destro has all the tools they need to win in large scale battles already. RvR is ALWAYS a numbers game, balance takes a big backseat when you're fielding 50-100 more people at a time. You (Destro leadership, most likely not you specifically) needs to recruit more people, lead them effectively, and fight the defeatist attitudes from the community side that YOU specifically are espousing. Devs are not going to fight that battle for the community because that would absolutely be representative of the bias you're essentially accusing them of to begin with.

Find a different battle to fight on the forums and keep development staff and accusations of bias out of it.
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Stahn123
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Re: Is endgame PvP just zerging and keep-takes?

Post#40 » Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:23 pm

wargrimnir wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 6:43 pm
Stahn123 wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 3:46 am LOL. These comments are great. Glad to see the community finally coming out and saying things in volume that force a response.

The Devs and formers basically just said they play Order or have no problem with the imbalances here and to leave if we don't like it. So, does that mean you all have no intention to fix what we, and now you, all know to be issues? There have been many ideas and suggestions given and posted. They aren't always meant to be taken as gospel or done exactly, it's to generate ideas and possible solutions. They're trying to help.

Destro chat has, as of lately, been full of defeatism. They are leaving. There will be no Destro soon. There is already talk of boycotts of forts, city, etc. Most already don't show up to defend a keep because it's pointless. They can NEVER go on offense, and that is a morale killer. No quests or events give credit for defense, or attempted defense, so they'll never obtain any of those rewards. Even if every single Destro on the server 16+ was in the lakes, they'd still be outnumbered. Last night they tried to take a fort in TM while Order had 40% AAO, within 10 minutes and before the first wall went down, that turned into 60% AAO for Destro. Destro players gave up immediately and left. Order then went on to push several zones almost uncontested. There is a HUGE problem here with population, and until it's addressed, you will continue to see Destro players leaving and no "good fights" will be had. It will eventually become boycotts and abandonment. How bad does it have to get? Apparently according to the team on this thread, much.

Order guilds swap to Destro and push for the 5 star Altdorf, during the 2nd fort attack they begin to log off and let the PUG finish the Lord, they then log on their Order main and steamroll all the Destro because they're gear isn't anywhere near to par and they have less experience in the city. This results in full gold bags and easy wins for Order. It's the ONLY TIME Altdorf even comes under siege. The devs know this, and have stated here they don't mind the unbalance, and if you don't like it to leave.

Now, perhaps we should take up them up on their "leave" option? Leave rvr, leave Destro, leave them starved for pvp until they fix the problems they've created for themselves? So far I haven't seen a post mention a Destro class in the Dev comments here that they personally play. They obviously don't play in the off hours as Destro or we wouldn't be having this conversation at all. Of course, if there is a reply to this at all, they will claim the contrary, but you don't see that volunteered first, meaning it's not what they are playing currently or recently. The whole "no bias" thing has to be shown after all, but the admittance to unbalance and the intent to not fix it says that it's known about but they just don't care to address, fix, or otherwise acknowledge it. So, lets do what they said. Let's leave. Give them nothing. No fights, no renown, no SC, no ranked, no rvr. Just pve dungeons, get gear, get unlocks, do all the K8P quests. Stock up potions for when the fix eventually comes, or just join Order and get bags. See the other side of the game for a while without any danger, you'll get to see the keeps and the battles you never get to experience. Just a few thoughts, after all we are all entitled to our opinions as GamesBond said, right? So, lets give our opinions and do what it takes to generate the fix we've been waiting months for.
Nothing GB said had anything to do with the terrible biased take you've got going on here. Development does not bow to one side or the other, balance does not exist to tip the scales. This is very directly addressed if you read the stickied posts in the balance proposal section of the forums. It's not that "we don't mind the unbalance" it's more that it's hardly our responsibility to make sure each realm has competent leaders that can lead effectively. This is a cycle we've seen repeat on both realms. It's not something we address directly to tip the scales, despite the outcry from people both blaming and begging us to be biased.

Destro has all the tools they need to win in large scale battles already. RvR is ALWAYS a numbers game, balance takes a big backseat when you're fielding 50-100 more people at a time. You (Destro leadership, most likely not you specifically) needs to recruit more people, lead them effectively, and fight the defeatist attitudes from the community side that YOU specifically are espousing. Devs are not going to fight that battle for the community because that would absolutely be representative of the bias you're essentially accusing them of to begin with.

Find a different battle to fight on the forums and keep development staff and accusations of bias out of it.
BTW, appreciate the specifications there. Please, don't think I'm trying to call you all out, I'm not. Just not the greatest at saying things sometimes. It's good to see the players speaking out in bulk and at least getting heard from ya'll. The squeaky wheel gets the grease, or at least the attention of the owner who has the option to use the WD-40. Can't fix a problem you don't know about, or address it. If they're loud enough, you'll at least give an answer. Which is what I'm praising, them for sticking to their guns, and you for actually saying something. Not what is wanting to hear, but it's something nonetheless. If the "leaving" option is the only one you're going to give us, then leave some will. Some to Order, some to PvE, some to other games entirely, but leave they will and leave they have, and continue to do so. Some problems won't just fix on their own, eventually you'll have to take action or there won't be any pvp left in orvr, it's already almost a ghost town on destro side. It's not a lack of leaders, enough of those. It's players. Destro isn't attractive enough to draw anyone currently. They just don't have the tool kits Order does. Everything you need in 1 classes package to do 1 thing. Destro has the same tools, but they're spread out over several classes and have a different effect because of how it's applied. They can't just do 1 thing and do it well like Order can. They need something to set them apart. Some classes on Destro players don't even know what to do with anymore. Like Black Orc. It's not a bad class, but overall it's very meh. It's not great at anything and brings nothing to the table another class can't bring. Chosen have zero block boosting abilities, so using a shield is extremely meh, but using a 2h is frowned upon by everyone who doesn't play one that way. They need either block boosting skills or better 2h defenses. Their damage isn't bad, but they bring nothing but auras to the table and aren't even a good tank with a shield on, literally all your block comes from your gear, and that isn't great. So much parry is required to make up for it it's almost pointless to use the shield at all and just stack parry, if it weren't for arrows/spells and hold the line, it WOULD be completely worthless as you can't pump your block to over like 45% at best. Witch Elves are currently stacking regeneration because their burst is so low compared to witch hunters. These are just a few of the issues. The kits are kind of a mess and need a bit more specialization in them to fit the vision they are supposed to be, at the moment you can't see what that vision is because they're all over the place. So many useless skills in the trees and tactics. Some tweaks are needed to make them attractive enough to bring people back over to try them out again. The numbers speak for themselves what players think of the current state of Destruction and we all see it. If it weren't for time invested, there would be even fewer.

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