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Premade facerolling is a problem in SC

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Toggle
Posts: 286

Re: Premade facerolling is a problem in SC

Post#81 » Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:22 pm

Sulorie wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:47 pm
Wraithedge wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:58 pm


Cons:

The devs would actually have to build the system

I suppose the idea that a premade might meet a group made powerful by determination occasionally might be considered a con, but it seems a small price to pay for a solution to a problem that has thus far totally and entirely stumped the devs.
Boosting players doesn't work, because you need to recognize the boost or people will call others cheater for dealing too much dmg.
The moment a premade sees super boosted players, which wouldn't even be nessesarry, if players play better, they would let their opponents win, if boost becomes broken. One pve win for the objectively weaker team and boost is gone and the premade can continue to dominate them.
Those /5 premades in midtier SC don't win because voicecom, they just play better. There are no geargaps at all in midtier, just players not utilizing their class properly.
When you make a new char a tutorial window pops up. Maybe this would be good for people becoming 16, where they can read the basics to start properly into midtier with links to guides.
The fact is, the rank doesn't matter from from let's say 17 to 39. The gear is rather easy to get.
People are weak because they don't bother with getting gear or flat out don't know what to get and how.
There are no gear gaps in mid tier? I’m going to pretend you’re joking. That aside, there is a pretty large skill gap in that bracket. Not as in player ability but straight up access to skills. A level 17 healer doesn’t even have their group heal yet at that point. There are classes that don’t get their “good stuff” until later on (mid 20s and some even later than that). Arguing that mid tier scenarios are “balanced” is disingenuous at best.
Shaman - 40/8X
Zealot - 40/8X [Retired]
AM - 40/8X
RP - 40/7X [Retired]

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meatcpu
Posts: 69

Re: Premade facerolling is a problem in SC

Post#82 » Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:58 pm

"lfm for t4 premade. Maybe a somebody with a heal debuff. Discord and swiftassist if you like winning."

I'm in the "just make a premade" camp, but it is regrettable how often people will turn down an invite and keep q'ing.

Sulorie
Posts: 7219

Re: Premade facerolling is a problem in SC

Post#83 » Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:20 pm

Toggle wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:22 pm
Spoiler:
Sulorie wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:47 pm
Boosting players doesn't work, because you need to recognize the boost or people will call others cheater for dealing too much dmg.
The moment a premade sees super boosted players, which wouldn't even be nessesarry, if players play better, they would let their opponents win, if boost becomes broken. One pve win for the objectively weaker team and boost is gone and the premade can continue to dominate them.
Those /5 premades in midtier SC don't win because voicecom, they just play better. There are no geargaps at all in midtier, just players not utilizing their class properly.
When you make a new char a tutorial window pops up. Maybe this would be good for people becoming 16, where they can read the basics to start properly into midtier with links to guides.
The fact is, the rank doesn't matter from from let's say 17 to 39. The gear is rather easy to get.
People are weak because they don't bother with getting gear or flat out don't know what to get and how.
There are no gear gaps in mid tier? I’m going to pretend you’re joking. That aside, there is a pretty large skill gap in that bracket. Not as in player ability but straight up access to skills. A level 17 healer doesn’t even have their group heal yet at that point. There are classes that don’t get their “good stuff” until later on (mid 20s and some even later than that). Arguing that mid tier scenarios are “balanced” is disingenuous at best.
I will make smilies, when I joke.
I am dead serious. You see regularly sub20 healers outheal r30+ healers. You don't lose sc because of those players, you lose because players no matter the rank don't contribute enough.
Balanced in your perspective would mean winning 50:50 with whatever either side brings to the table? If this is your stance, I disagree.
It doesn't matter what rank anyone has, when you fully utilize your char at a given rank. This means spec and gear. Bolster is crazy strong but only, when you use it properly.
Dying is no option.

Wraithedge
Posts: 135

Re: Premade facerolling is a problem in SC

Post#84 » Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:28 pm

Uncas23 wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:10 pm My suggestion: Make the exp and rp rewards better for the losing team. For me losing is not necessarily demotivating but when I get no progress out of it.
If you try but fail you should still get decent exp and rp rewards.
Its not a terrible idea but I feel like there is a real resistance to offering any kind of substantial rewards for anything except victory. And I don't know that I really want try to alter that paradigm. Its not where I think the problem lies anyway.
Sulorie wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:47 pm Boosting players doesn't work, because you need to recognize the boost or people will call others cheater for dealing too much dmg.
In a game where Witch Elves can stand on keep walls totally impervious to harm, murdering anyone who comes close without taking a pixel of damage, shamans can heal through an entire warbands while wandering across the battle field, where White Lions have seen the viability of their core mechanic disappear entirely while Witch Elves gain a pounce with a stun on it in addition to their flawless stealth that can be triggered while taking damage, nobody even knows what cheating is anymore. If someone was cheating right in front of you, nobody would be able to tell the difference.

Besides the boost isn't designed to offer substantial extra power. It is designed to break streaks of losses. Right now, applying one's self to the SC system in a dedicated fashion just produces more and more frustration and disillusionment in the game as a whole.

The boost turns that determination into a more positive experience without impacting other aspects of the SC system in any significant way. Premades still win, pugs still lose, but they are losing toward something rather than for nothing at all. Individuals can see themselves getting more and more of an opportunity as the losses mount but devs don't have to do anything to attend to individual balance.

And that may be a dividend for the health of the population beyond metric.

Sulorie
Posts: 7219

Re: Premade facerolling is a problem in SC

Post#85 » Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:39 pm

Wraithedge wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:28 pm

In a game where Witch Elves can stand on keep walls totally impervious to harm, murdering anyone who comes close without taking a pixel of damage, shamans can heal through an entire warbands while wandering across the battle field, where White Lions have seen the viability of their core mechanic disappear entirely while Witch Elves gain a pounce with a stun on it in addition to their flawless stealth that can be triggered while taking damage, nobody even knows what cheating is anymore.
I assume you have recorded that WE taking 0 (zero) damage and that shaman, who survives an entire warband (24 ppl). I mean, you don't want to exaggerate in an argument, no?

How many WE would swap the tiny pounce for the WH armordebuff? Let me guess...most? It doesn't stun btw, don't mix things up, when you want to turn this into a class discussion of destro op - order meh. Thanks.
Dying is no option.

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Toggle
Posts: 286

Re: Premade facerolling is a problem in SC

Post#86 » Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:42 pm

Sulorie wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:20 pm
Toggle wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:22 pm
Spoiler:
Sulorie wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:47 pm
Boosting players doesn't work, because you need to recognize the boost or people will call others cheater for dealing too much dmg.
The moment a premade sees super boosted players, which wouldn't even be nessesarry, if players play better, they would let their opponents win, if boost becomes broken. One pve win for the objectively weaker team and boost is gone and the premade can continue to dominate them.
Those /5 premades in midtier SC don't win because voicecom, they just play better. There are no geargaps at all in midtier, just players not utilizing their class properly.
When you make a new char a tutorial window pops up. Maybe this would be good for people becoming 16, where they can read the basics to start properly into midtier with links to guides.
The fact is, the rank doesn't matter from from let's say 17 to 39. The gear is rather easy to get.
People are weak because they don't bother with getting gear or flat out don't know what to get and how.
There are no gear gaps in mid tier? I’m going to pretend you’re joking. That aside, there is a pretty large skill gap in that bracket. Not as in player ability but straight up access to skills. A level 17 healer doesn’t even have their group heal yet at that point. There are classes that don’t get their “good stuff” until later on (mid 20s and some even later than that). Arguing that mid tier scenarios are “balanced” is disingenuous at best.
I will make smilies, when I joke.
I am dead serious. You see regularly sub20 healers outheal r30+ healers. You don't lose sc because of those players, you lose because players no matter the rank don't contribute enough.
Balanced in your perspective would mean winning 50:50 with whatever either side brings to the table? If this is your stance, I disagree.
It doesn't matter what rank anyone has, when you fully utilize your char at a given rank. This means spec and gear. Bolster is crazy strong but only, when you use it properly.
Those low levels outhealing rank 30+ are outliers. You’ve played this game long enough to know that.

Thanks for telling me what my perspective is. I appreciate it. That’s sarcasm. I don’t use smilies, so I figured I would note that.

Balanced means exactly that, equal playing field. Mid tier SCs are not balanced by that definition and never will be due to gear, availability of skills, and RR point disparities…even when bolster is taken into account. Personally, I think trying to balance them is a fools errand, but that doesn’t make them “balanced”.
Shaman - 40/8X
Zealot - 40/8X [Retired]
AM - 40/8X
RP - 40/7X [Retired]

User avatar
Omegus
Posts: 1373

Re: Premade facerolling is a problem in SC

Post#87 » Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:50 pm

Wraithedge wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:28 pmIn a game where Witch Elves can stand on keep walls totally impervious to harm, murdering anyone who comes close without taking a pixel of damage
You realise those Witch Elves have 2 group healers hugging the walls beneath them, and the good WEs constantly run to the edge of the walls to get hotted up by all the healers down below? Or have even better placement and are getting single target heals on them as well as the HoTs?

Personally speaking, when the oil is up I will focus my healing on the WEs nuking it regardless of whether those WEs are in my party or warband, and considering the amount of Zealot HoTs I see get thrown up to them (it has a unique effect) I'm not the only one. Leaping Alteration is also a great one to put up there as it will apply the HoT to all the WEs by the oil. Multiply that by a number of Zealots along with all of the other healing those WEs are getting and no wonder their health hardly moves.
Zomega: RR8x Zealot

Wraithedge
Posts: 135

Re: Premade facerolling is a problem in SC

Post#88 » Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:51 pm

Sulorie wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:39 pm I assume you have recorded that WE taking 0 (zero) damage and that shaman, who survives an entire warband (24 ppl). I mean, you don't want to exaggerate in an argument, no?

How many WE would swap the tiny pounce for the WH armordebuff? Let me guess...most? It doesn't stun btw, don't mix things up, when you want to turn this into a class discussion of destro op - order meh. Thanks.
Is there no stun on it? Good info then, I stand corrected.

Your assumptions, however, are none of my business. Don't get distracted in the attempt to derail the discussion. This is about injecting volatility into the SC system without significantly perturbing the other factors or requiring any extra ongoing oversight or maintenance and it is as elegant a method as I can imagine to preserve some vestige of a new player experience as well as providing a more interesting and compelling reason to queue for SCs.

Omegus wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:50 pm
You realise those Witch Elves have 2 group healers hugging the walls beneath them, and the good WEs constantly run to the edge of the walls to get hotted up by all the healers down below? Or have even better placement and are getting single target heals on them as well as the HoTs?
Im not saying you are wrong. In fact I assume you are absolutely right.

What I am saying is that if two were standing there and one had four heals and a guard while the other was hacking, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

It seems like a design problem that the best play is indistinguishable from the most egregious hack.

I think this thread only cares about that so far as to say that the ship has long since sailed on people having any real questions about some display of outrageous power. Everyone just assumes someone did something cheeky and its time to respawn and get back into it.

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Sulorie
Posts: 7219

Re: Premade facerolling is a problem in SC

Post#89 » Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:05 am

Toggle wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:42 pm Those low levels outhealing rank 30+ are outliers. You’ve played this game long enough to know that.

Thanks for telling me what my perspective is. I appreciate it. That’s sarcasm. I don’t use smilies, so I figured I would note that.

Balanced means exactly that, equal playing field. Mid tier SCs are not balanced by that definition and never will be due to gear, availability of skills, and RR point disparities…even when bolster is taken into account. Personally, I think trying to balance them is a fools errand, but that doesn’t make them “balanced”.
Any class with any rank can do it, so it's not a matter of lowlvls vs r35+ but experienced players, who know how to prepare their char vs inexperienced ones.
Give both teams the same ranks and the results will be no different, when some have adequate gear - which requires no farming - and some have gear 10+ ranks lower than their char rank or missing pieces.
The amount of available rr points due to rr=rank cap is nowhere near a deciding factor in midtier.

Btw, when you read again, you will find a question, not a statement.

The kind of balance you want to have won't ever happen, as it requires equal player skill on both sides. This doesn't work in ranked and it won't work in normal queue.
The side, which wants to win more, will win. To win, every player in the team has to do their fair share, which means learning the class and gearing up properly, no matter the rank.
Dying is no option.

punk7712
Posts: 25

Re: Premade facerolling is a problem in SC

Post#90 » Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:44 am

Uncas23 wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:10 pm My suggestion: Make the exp and rp rewards better for the losing team. For me losing is not necessarily demotivating but when I get no progress out of it.
If you try but fail you should still get decent exp and rp rewards.
exactly. I see a lot of people saying this. Myself included.

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