Full regen build ruining the game

[ashton007]

Also I would like to point out that the sov weapons will bring about MORE regen, as the defensive 2h also had +80/4sec. But really it’s just a niche thing that’s only useful in extreme pug/solo, lol.

[Grock]

Woah what a thread i have missed, damn!

Not gonna read everything, just wanna drop my point here.

The problem isn't the regen itself (frankly its quite weak), the problem is how powerful the defence stacking is, and how easily some classes can do it without sacrificing in other aspects like damage.

Armor and avoidances stack additively which results in hyperbolic growth of their efficiency - the more you get the more effective your investments are.
Even the current hard cap of 75% doesn't help much coz 75% is still very very high: thats a 400% increase in the amount of dmg you can survive. And if you have both armor and for example parry at those 75% values (reachable for Chosen, BG) then thats 1600% increase in the amount of damage you can withstand.
Imagine these values, but as damage buffs instead, sounds completely insane, right?

This is because armor/avoidance/toughness reduces the amount of dmg/hits that lands on you, so the closer you get to reducing it to 0% the more efficient it is.
To demonstrate with an example - going from 0 parrry to 10% parry means on average you'll be able to tank 11% more damage than HP you have, thats called Effective HP (you'll be hit by only 90% of all attacks, so 1 / 0.9 = 1.11).
However getting the same 10% parry when you already have 50% (which is alreay 200% Effective HP) will take you from 200% EHP to 250% EHP, which is 25% more and lets you survive a whole extra half of your base HP as damage (1/0.5 = 2 = 200% ehp, while 1 / 0.4 = 2.5 = 250% ehp, 250/200 = 1.25).

This sort of math applies to all damage mitigation values that stack additively in this game, but most noticeable with Armor and Parry/Dodge/Disrupt/Block due to them being easily stackable without softcaps and high fairly high hardcaps.
Trivial Blows is also affected by this, which makes its low values very ineffective, while going all 4lvls in it is good (first 3 levels give you 24% reduction = +31% ehp vs crit dmg at the cost of 30rr, while 4th level boosts it to 40% reduction = +66% ehp at the cost of only 15rr)

Damage bonuses like crit or strenth, on the other hand, have opposite growth effect as you stack them - each further point of investment is relatively less effective because you already got a bunch (although the effect is fairly subtle due to low values).
In other words its better to build multiple sources of damage, instead of relying on maxing out a single one.


Until this disparity is addressed there's no point nerfing Regen, becuse it will just kill it for non-deftard builds, while still leaving the true cause of the problem unattended.

[tazdingo]

def tanks used to be able to survive entire wbs. now a bis turtle dies to focus from a single ST hard dps. mitigation has been nerfed enough since live. have mercy

also that 182 regen body looks like t2 wl armour on bg lol

[Vegetaplays]

I'll throw my hands into the fire. Basically what dahaka said is what i fully agree with. Regen is geared to the solo architype, so its perfect for it, but we know how everyone feels about solo players anyways.

[Sinisterror]

If people are willing to share where to get these new regen items would be much appreciated! I only know about 80hp pocket. 184hp just on chest.. and im guessing there are more new items as well ?

[kazuya482]

If people are willing to share where to get these new regen items would be much appreciated! I only know about 80hp pocket. 184hp just on chest.. and im guessing there are more new items as well ?

Fleshrender Jewel pieces, offensive sov shoulders, warlord boots and chest all have regen. At least for Chosen.

Keep in mind the jewel pieces are 500g+ each. More and more people definitely realized how strong the build is for solo/small scale. Fleshrenders were around 120-180g each when i bought a few.

[Sinisterror]

If people are willing to share where to get these new regen items would be much appreciated! I only know about 80hp pocket. 184hp just on chest.. and im guessing there are more new items as well ?

Fleshrender Jewel pieces, offensive sov shoulders, warlord boots and chest all have regen. At least for Chosen.

Keep in mind the jewel pieces are 500g+ each. More and more people definitely realized how strong the build is for solo/small scale. Fleshrenders were around 120-180g each when i bought a few.

Lol i asked about " new regen items " like 184hp regen chest. I know about sove/fleshrender and it is so easy to get with 1 tank 1 healer and ive gotten all fleshrenders i have by actually doing the lair not bying the items.

what i want to know is whre to get that chest with 184 hp on order/destro and if there is another ones i dont know about because i assume there is. New cities. Ty anyway

[Caduceus]

Woah what a thread i have missed, damn!

Not gonna read everything, just wanna drop my point here.

The problem isn't the regen itself (frankly its quite weak), the problem is how powerful the defence stacking is, and how easily some classes can do it without sacrificing in other aspects like damage.

Armor and avoidances stack additively which results in hyperbolic growth of their efficiency - the more you get the more effective your investments are.
Even the current hard cap of 75% doesn't help much coz 75% is still very very high: thats a 400% increase in the amount of dmg you can survive. And if you have both armor and for example parry at those 75% values (reachable for Chosen, BG) then thats 1600% increase in the amount of damage you can withstand.
Imagine these values, but as damage buffs instead, sounds completely insane, right?

This is because armor/avoidance/toughness reduces the amount of dmg/hits that lands on you, so the closer you get to reducing it to 0% the more efficient it is.
To demonstrate with an example - going from 0 parrry to 10% parry means on average you'll be able to tank 11% more damage than HP you have, thats called Effective HP (you'll be hit by only 90% of all attacks, so 1 / 0.9 = 1.11).
However getting the same 10% parry when you already have 50% (which is alreay 200% Effective HP) will take you from 200% EHP to 250% EHP, which is 25% more and lets you survive a whole extra half of your base HP as damage (1/0.5 = 2 = 200% ehp, while 1 / 0.4 = 2.5 = 250% ehp, 250/200 = 1.25).

This sort of math applies to all damage mitigation values that stack additively in this game, but most noticeable with Armor and Parry/Dodge/Disrupt/Block due to them being easily stackable without softcaps and high fairly high hardcaps.
Trivial Blows is also affected by this, which makes its low values very ineffective, while going all 4lvls in it is good (first 3 levels give you 24% reduction = +31% ehp vs crit dmg at the cost of 30rr, while 4th level boosts it to 40% reduction = +66% ehp at the cost of only 15rr)

Damage bonuses like crit or strenth, on the other hand, have opposite growth effect as you stack them - each further point of investment is relatively less effective because you already got a bunch (although the effect is fairly subtle due to low values).
In other words its better to build multiple sources of damage, instead of relying on maxing out a single one.


Until this disparity is addressed there's no point nerfing Regen, becuse it will just kill it for non-deftard builds, while still leaving the true cause of the problem unattended.

Great post.


Frankly, I think the devs need to read this, because the way mitigation and time-to-kill have evolved over time is (in my opinion) slowly taking the fun out of the game and is promoting zerging. This thread focuses on the solo/small-scale side of this issue, but I think it is much wider.


I think you're right, and I'll have to correct myself as well: it's the mitigation (and not regen) that is the key. Because of the incredibly high mitigation, even a little bit of regen becomes very effective, because every point of health regenerated benefits from those percentages that you listed.

[Oldschool]

If we talk about mitigation etc...why we have pots? Just delete the pots and let the class get what the class have. No further stupid additional stuff....
And to the regen issue I have to say: delete this items as well!
Let play a game focused on the class roles....not on 1 vs 1 with DamageHealers everywhere etc...
I like it more "pure" where a Tank is a Tank and a Healer is a Healer and a DD is a DD...if we try to mix all around...selfhealing tanks and damage Healers and never dying DDs...we get this "jack of all trades" classes....
Just my 2 Cent.

[tazdingo]

Lol i asked about " new regen items " like 184hp regen chest. I know about sove/fleshrender and it is so easy to get with 1 tank 1 healer and ive gotten all fleshrenders i have by actually doing the lair not bying the items.

what i want to know is whre to get that chest with 184 hp on order/destro and if there is another ones i dont know about because i assume there is. New cities. Ty anyway

grimshyre lair in saph. add gutrend on dest if u wanna run it i can help ppl get it. we managed with 2 tank 2 dps 0 heals. you have to kill a champ in the south to get the portal

as far anything else i have no idea. i check the ah regularly and see nothing. i've heard some LV items have it? but not on wiki yet. there are probably some secret items. if you know any msg me on here, i pay much dest gold. srs

re. mitigation, please refute my point of def tanks being the most overnerfed archetype since live. TTK has slowly crept up? no, it has violently plummeted down. you have to let high mitigation tanks exist or orvr doesn't work. try standing at the front for 3 seconds as any other class without guard