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Full regen build ruining the game

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yhani
Posts: 108

Re: Full regen build ruining the game

Post#121 » Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:36 pm

I like to run with self-absorb and around 1k toughness so that bubble is 375+250 = 625....I know it gets nothing from resistances and armor but it can proc after every 3 seconds.
Then I can have:
- Some regen from sov items and abilities
- 40-50 block/parry
- 25-30 crit reduction
- three morale fleshrenders gives +6 morale reg (when I run solo I can pop that m1 or m2 quite fast), 6 armor pen reduction, 48 toughness
- all good **** from seven piece sov

I rather run with all that than with some self regen build that is barely worth of good shield


BeautfulToad wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:07 am
  • Parry/Block is great. If you are facing the person you are fighting.
with high lvl tank parry is great way to cut dmg from guarding, parry against melee is nice bonus
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yoluigi
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Re: Full regen build ruining the game

Post#122 » Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:45 pm

Grock wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 4:22 pm
BeautfulToad wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:07 am Here's a few issues with what you are saying:
  • All stats become relatively less effective as you increase them, I think 900 or 1k is the softcap for all stats
  • Toughness is only really stacked (by my knowledge) by SnB tanks and one build on magus, rest don't seem to stack it. View used to be, mitigation is kind of useless without wounds
  • Armor pen nerfs armor quite considerably, and all high rr dps have huge armor penetration and casters don't need it
  • Parry/Block is great. If you are facing the person you are fighting.
  • Morals are unaffected by any sort of mitigation.

Not sure why you are arguing that SnB tanks with high mitigation (all they do is mitigate damage, it's their role in the team) are OP and all their current caps are not low enough, but also that health regeneration shouldn't be capped at all.
While Toughness does have a softcap, and even with full build it usually doesn't give as much mitigation as armor, it still gives you a value that is substracted from incoming attack's damage, and if the opponent has low strength you can end up with situations like this:
Image
In that screenshot it was at about 500 strength and t1 weapons vs 970~ toughness tank.
(btw that is ~99.44% total mitigation, or "18149% EHP" on that ability hit :lol: )

Toughness is fairly common among solo tanks, engi/magi, some shamans that do the survival build, and also the focus of defensive WE build. In most instances the reason it works so well is because these classes have solid sources of non-physical damage, so they simply bypass the armor and can ignore "weapon skill" as a stat whatsoever, investing those stat points into defence.

Following this, while WS does reduce armor effect, its not enough to counter high armor targets coz base armor values are so ridiculously high at high lvl gear, and can be overstacked so much that even after Weapon Skill it still provides heavy protection. Plus there are "reduced armor pen" bonuses on gear.
Meanwhile WS itself doesn't come easily, it is an expensive investment, while armor for tanks comes mostly for free, just by a virtue of using heavy armour.
Having to stack an expensive and not particularly useful stat just to barely counter one type of opponent, while getting very little against others, and still having your damage mitigated like this:
Image
...feels pretty unfair.
Meanwhile classes that rely on magic damage can put all those stats into something more useful, like defences and survivability, which stacks more efficiently.

Frankly, i think WS-based armorpen is a poor design in general and the game would be better without it - but with armor being rebalanced on the base level.
The fact that everyone has bit of WS just means your armor value is inconsistent and unreliable, and you have to jump through the hoops to figure out how much armor you'd have against different opponents.
It would've been better if things like armorpen came only from abilities and buffs, so that it could be telegraphed via status effects and addons like Buffhead and Aura.

This discussion isn't limited to tanks or SnB builds, its about the underlying math that is used for defence stats which makes it more beneficial to max out certain things, instead of spreading your investments evenly among different defence types.
The regen discussion applies almost exclusively to solo and small scale play, as neither regen nor def builds are an issue in fullgroup/warband level play - regen is negligible compared to healers output, "op defences" of tanks are irrelevant because they aren't your targets, and def builds on dps aren't used much coz tanks and healers provide more than enough protection, and instead you need more firepower to punch through all that.

In the end, im not arguing that defences are just too good overall, but that due to the way def stats are stacking some classes can reach extremely high defences without enough trade-offs in other aspects of their builds, and that makes other things - like regen - feel overpowered as well.
Ekundu01 wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:26 pm Regen is a problem on only some classes. Mainly the ones you see soloing are the only ones that can make regen work for them because there is a niche that allows it to be a bit over the top.

Main classes that can get away with running it are ones that have access to either good mitigation or other skills to compliment the regen.

All tanks with the exception of 7 piece invader have copy paste type gear. The stats on warlord and sov are the same for all tanks yet all tanks are not created equal. This creates imbalances when it comes to performance in the solo/small man roam. There are also imbalances when it comes to order/destro we won't get into that because that will just cause a S'Storm here.

Regen on its own looks bad on paper, what is one hot tick ever 4 seconds really going to do in a fight right? But here are the factors that make it a bit over the top.

1. Mitigation - each time you avoid damage for 4 seconds you are netting more hp than you lose. High Armor/toughness, avoidance mainly parry/absorb, along with in general kiting/punting people away for a few seconds to get extra ticks in.

2. Duration of the fight - the longer it goes on the more it works for you. Lets go on the low side lets say Warlord chest and boots, off sov shoulders, the new regen pocket item and only 1 fleshrender ring. That is 304 regen every 4 seconds. In 3 seconds it would tick 7 times so that is 2128 hp over 30 seconds that can't be heal debuffed, can't be stripped, doesn't cost ap or a global cd.

3. Combining it with other heals - Most if not all solo players are running with Double heal pots and possibly absorb pots. Some are running some sort of heal mechanics from the class they are playing, bullet heal, kiss heal, hot tactics, absorb skills/tactics/morale. Straight damage avoidance like confusing movements or other avoidance boosting abilities.

When you factor in all this combined you end up having almost 2 lifebars or more depending on how long the fight drags out to be.

The reason this crap works so well on some classes is because they have the loop hole to get by being more defensive while still having a way to deal damage. Mainly classes that don't have any way to deal non physical damage draw the short straw. Not saying you can't make it work on physical only classes but you have a much harder time because everyone has access to armor pots. Classes that have access to magic damage can spec more defensive and not lose much of anything. Now that some of the procs scale with damage stats from recent changes it makes being defensive even more easy.

Think about it this way what if all healers had a permanent hot that can't crit but can't be debuffed running 24/7 that doesn't cost ap or a global that stacks with everything? How hard would it be to kill the healer that is now running from you casting other heals and hots and absorbs? This is what regen is like in a nut shell in the solo game. And most solo 70+ players are all running this because the only way to beat it is to outlast them because most players are not going to have the burst to end it quickly.
Soo yeah the best combo when i said regen is Warlord mixed with sov regen gear + hv +fleshring + sov jewel. (if you SM or Chosen probably the best classes for this) You and Grock put the best answers here i'l put them in the Opening post i just find it sad that everyone goes for that build when there really not other choice for small scale if you wanna compete against that build.

The forum management can close this post enough been said.

BeautfulToad
Posts: 631

Re: Full regen build ruining the game

Post#123 » Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:17 am

Grock wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 5:53 pm
I believe the mention of 1.2k regen was referring to IB/BG with their self-heal ability, not just raw regen, there's no way to stack that much.

What im saying is that those 300-400 regen builds are only overperforming when used together with strong defences
He literally posted up a youtube video two days ago on the forum and he was regenerating from half his health in seconds. In the thread, he was discussing it, he was über stacking regen as an IB.

People who were attacking him seemed to be doing solid damage.
reynor007 wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 2:15 pm I can't say that this is an uber build, I have 1200regen along with a buff

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Grock
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Re: Full regen build ruining the game

Post#124 » Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:28 am

BeautfulToad wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:17 am
Grock wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 5:53 pm
I believe the mention of 1.2k regen was referring to IB/BG with their self-heal ability, not just raw regen, there's no way to stack that much.

What im saying is that those 300-400 regen builds are only overperforming when used together with strong defences
He literally posted up a youtube video two days ago on the forum and he was regenerating from half his health in seconds. In the thread, he was discussing it, he was über stacking regen as an IB.

People who were attacking him seemed to be doing solid damage.
reynor007 wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 2:15 pm I can't say that this is an uber build, I have 1200regen along with a buff
Like i said, they were referring to IB self-heal ability "Grumble an' Mutter" which heals them a bit every 3 seconds for 30 seconds. Strictly speaking its not "regen", but still feels similar.
Also he mentioned that number in the context that he was actually killed by some strong opponents despite the powerful regen.
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reynor007
Posts: 504

Re: Full regen build ruining the game

Post#125 » Tue Oct 12, 2021 7:52 am

Grock wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:28 am
BeautfulToad wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:17 am
Grock wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 5:53 pm
I believe the mention of 1.2k regen was referring to IB/BG with their self-heal ability, not just raw regen, there's no way to stack that much.

What im saying is that those 300-400 regen builds are only overperforming when used together with strong defences
He literally posted up a youtube video two days ago on the forum and he was regenerating from half his health in seconds. In the thread, he was discussing it, he was über stacking regen as an IB.

People who were attacking him seemed to be doing solid damage.
reynor007 wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 2:15 pm I can't say that this is an uber build, I have 1200regen along with a buff
Like i said, they were referring to IB self-heal ability "Grumble an' Mutter" which heals them a bit every 3 seconds for 30 seconds. Strictly speaking its not "regen", but still feels similar.
Also he mentioned that number in the context that he was actually killed by some strong opponents despite the powerful regen.
this is the largest amount of regeneration at the moment, you simply cannot do more, just so much on my ib 184 + 64 + 40 + 120 + 72 + 140 + 80 + 80 = 780 (45 def weapon +36 but who is using it at all?) this is about 9.5% of my total health and yes there are some WE and dps magus who can easily pierce it, but for example rioz did not have enough damage for this
Last edited by reynor007 on Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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tazdingo
Posts: 1199

Re: Full regen build ruining the game

Post#126 » Tue Oct 12, 2021 7:58 am

reynor007 wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 7:52 am this is the largest amount of regeneration at the moment, you simply cannot do more, just so much on my ib 182 + 64 + 40 + 120 + 72 + 140 + 80 + 80 = 778 (45 def weapon +36 but who is using it at all?) this is about 9.5% of my total health and yes there are some WE and dps magus who can easily pierce it, but for example rioz did not have enough damage for this

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ashton007
Posts: 380

Re: Full regen build ruining the game

Post#127 » Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:20 pm

Regen specs are decent for solo at best. Imagine those tanks trying to guard hahaha, they’d be melted before that regen did sh**.

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oaliaen
Posts: 1201

Re: Full regen build ruining the game

Post#128 » Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:45 pm

ashton007 wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:20 pm Regen specs are decent for solo at best. Imagine those tanks trying to guard hahaha, they’d be melted before that regen did sh**.
True .. regen tanks are **** on guarding :lol:
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Re: Full regen build ruining the game

Post#129 » Tue Oct 12, 2021 7:22 pm

you mitigate alot of guard dmg from parry, it depends whether or not your guard is getting melted itself.

sunshinefuntime
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Re: Full regen build ruining the game

Post#130 » Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:29 pm

yoluigi wrote: Sat Oct 09, 2021 3:42 pm The full regen builds on tanks is way too strong. I was with a friend 2h ib could not even get the chosen 2h down more than 85% and we both in Full bis gear.
With that extra item we got 80 regen should have been instead something like +20 initiative.
The damage to balancing class/gear is pretty much done since we got sov gear without releasing any good dps weapons (back in live was like 105 dps) soo any defencive build will alwas be better than any offencive build if your melee. I personaly think the most balance the game was when Bloodlord/invader was last tier.

With regen We could make it if you put any kind of 25, 50% anti heal it would also work for regen.

Meaning if you got 500 regen would go down to 250 if 50% anti heal is placed.
Or release sov weapons?

What's is your thought?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edit respond from ekundu01
Regen is a problem on only some classes. Mainly the ones you see soloing are the only ones that can make regen work for them because there is a niche that allows it to be a bit over the top.

Main classes that can get away with running it are ones that have access to either good mitigation or other skills to compliment the regen.

All tanks with the exception of 7 piece invader have copy paste type gear. The stats on warlord and sov are the same for all tanks yet all tanks are not created equal. This creates imbalances when it comes to performance in the solo/small man roam. There are also imbalances when it comes to order/destro we won't get into that because that will just cause a S'Storm here.

Regen on its own looks bad on paper, what is one hot tick ever 4 seconds really going to do in a fight right? But here are the factors that make it a bit over the top.

1. Mitigation - each time you avoid damage for 4 seconds you are netting more hp than you lose. High Armor/toughness, avoidance mainly parry/absorb, along with in general kiting/punting people away for a few seconds to get extra ticks in.

2. Duration of the fight - the longer it goes on the more it works for you. Lets go on the low side lets say Warlord chest and boots, off sov shoulders, the new regen pocket item and only 1 fleshrender ring. That is 304 regen every 4 seconds. In 3 seconds it would tick 7 times so that is 2128 hp over 30 seconds that can't be heal debuffed, can't be stripped, doesn't cost ap or a global cd.

3. Combining it with other heals - Most if not all solo players are running with Double heal pots and possibly absorb pots. Some are running some sort of heal mechanics from the class they are playing, bullet heal, kiss heal, hot tactics, absorb skills/tactics/morale. Straight damage avoidance like confusing movements or other avoidance boosting abilities.

When you factor in all this combined you end up having almost 2 lifebars or more depending on how long the fight drags out to be.

The reason this crap works so well on some classes is because they have the loop hole to get by being more defensive while still having a way to deal damage. Mainly classes that don't have any way to deal non physical damage draw the short straw. Not saying you can't make it work on physical only classes but you have a much harder time because everyone has access to armor pots. Classes that have access to magic damage can spec more defensive and not lose much of anything. Now that some of the procs scale with damage stats from recent changes it makes being defensive even more easy.

Think about it this way what if all healers had a permanent hot that can't crit but can't be debuffed running 24/7 that doesn't cost ap or a global that stacks with everything? How hard would it be to kill the healer that is now running from you casting other heals and hots and absorbs? This is what regen is like in a nut shell in the solo game. And most solo 70+ players are all running this because the only way to beat it is to outlast them because most players are not going to have the burst to end it quickly.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-Grock-
The problem isn't the regen itself (frankly its quite weak), the problem is how powerful the defence stacking is, and how easily some classes can do it without sacrificing in other aspects like damage.

Armor and avoidances stack additively which results in hyperbolic growth of their efficiency - the more you get the more effective your investments are.
Even the current hard cap of 75% doesn't help much coz 75% is still very very high: thats a 400% increase in the amount of dmg you can survive. And if you have both armor and for example parry at those 75% values (reachable for Chosen, BG) then thats 1600% increase in the amount of damage you can withstand.
Imagine these values, but as damage buffs instead, sounds completely insane, right?

This is because armor/avoidance/toughness reduces the amount of dmg/hits that lands on you, so the closer you get to reducing it to 0% the more efficient it is.
To demonstrate with an example - going from 0 parrry to 10% parry means on average you'll be able to tank 11% more damage than HP you have, thats called Effective HP (you'll be hit by only 90% of all attacks, so 1 / 0.9 = 1.11).
However getting the same 10% parry when you already have 50% (which is alreay 200% Effective HP) will take you from 200% EHP to 250% EHP, which is 25% more and lets you survive a whole extra half of your base HP as damage (1/0.5 = 2 = 200% ehp, while 1 / 0.4 = 2.5 = 250% ehp, 250/200 = 1.25).

This sort of math applies to all damage mitigation values that stack additively in this game, but most noticeable with Armor and Parry/Dodge/Disrupt/Block due to them being easily stackable without softcaps and high fairly high hardcaps.
Trivial Blows is also affected by this, which makes its low values very ineffective, while going all 4lvls in it is good (first 3 levels give you 24% reduction = +31% ehp vs crit dmg at the cost of 30rr, while 4th level boosts it to 40% reduction = +66% ehp at the cost of only 15rr)

Damage bonuses like crit or strenth, on the other hand, have opposite growth effect as you stack them - each further point of investment is relatively less effective because you already got a bunch (although the effect is fairly subtle due to low values).
In other words its better to build multiple sources of damage, instead of relying on maxing out a single one.


Until this disparity is addressed there's no point nerfing Regen, becuse it will just kill it for non-deftard builds, while still leaving the true cause of the problem unattended.
Bro just admit to yourself this game is.... what it is.

PVP in "that new game" is 10,000x better, more fluid and less laggy for NA folks.

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