The alienation of solo/pug/casual players and it's unintended side-effects

[mynban]

Another note is that, it is a system problem where fighting for underdog is a lose-lose situation. When I first started it was order that was outnumbered and overpowered. Now it is destro. A balance patch wont fix it, the moment there is a slight momentum towards one direction, people will do the smart thing and switch to winning side, and things will be back to square one.

And this is not a player issue. Players will always and ALWAYS do what's in their best interest. It is a design issue, where all the rewards are given to winner and nothing to losing side; no matter how lopsided that victory was. So people just get their easy gains instead of fighting uphill and getting nothing.

[BeautfulToad]

people will do the smart thing and switch to winning side, and things will be back to square one.

Apart from forts, there's not really more rewards for fighting for the side which attacks keeps and those which defend. One issue with current system is side which is strongest dictates speed of the game, meaning outnumbered side has to wait for attackers to make a move. If attackers don't want to siege, you end up with a stalemate. At EU peak, zones don't flip as much as TZs which have relatively fewer players. In many ways, logging in at Pacific Islander peak time, you'll actually win the most bag rolls, but not be able to farm rr as easily.

[Panel]

When outnumbered not everyone logs onto the other side. I just log off or after checking the homepage simply don't log on at all. Not going to spend one second of my limited recreation time being farmed at odds of 5.1 and deluding myself that I'm playing a game in doing so.

[normanis]

i remember that final zone lock was how objectives u control
was times when u for win get 20 medals locked zone
also those microticks was good for casuals
getting aaomore than 100% for defending keep/fort is trow.
before if u die near keep u get resurected into keep, its avoiding taking empty keeps and promote defenders to defend.

[normanis]

I feel non-stop resource free healing, combined with the amount of healing without needing to invest in willpower; on a guarded target too strong.

Today I watched a 6man eventually give up beating on a tank+healer duo after hitting them 5mins without getting anywhere; and just hit flee+get on mounts and look for a new target elsewhere. There was massive gear/rr difference of course; but if that was a dps duo instead, 2-3 of 6man would die, but they would probably kill at least one of that duo. It doesn't help that most new players start playing with a dps class either.

There is simply a dps/cc coordination treshold for getting any kills vs targets under guard & heal. If you dont hit that treshold, you may as well afk since nothing will change regardless. And from a pug perspective, there is massive difference between losing without being able even bring a single enemy close to death, vs losing while being able to kill a few from other side.

I used to play WoW arena on shaman and rogue. Having heal in your skillset didnt mean being able to use it infinitely, you had to balance cd/casttime/mana. Here in RoR you can heal 7/24 without running out of resource. It is kind of weird that dps actually runs out of ap after a short time, but healers can go on forever.

true about wow compared to ror

[Caduceus]

Afaik TTK only feels long in engagements of equally strong opponents, where all come down to a lucky CC chain or small mistake to secure a kill - granted that not one setup is inherently weaker from the get go.

Yes, what causes the high TTK is the safety net produced by the tanks and healers. If those aren't present then the TTK is not high at all.

In fact, in hindsight I regret using the term 'TTK', because in the course of this discussion I've realized the TTK is only a product of the offense/defense balance. The TTK is quite low sometimes, but if the TTK is 3 seconds, and the healers/tanks reaction time is 2 seconds, it will still cause a seemingly high TTK.

Though, the "high TTK" as experienced in high level play is experienced also when the forces are unbalanced, and it will translate in no kills for the losing side.

Don't you think, that less defensive tools will make the undergeared team wipe faster, especially with assist working more reliably with more coordinated groups.
The city warbands, who lose with 0 kills, never had a realistic chance, no matter how much defensive safety nets you have.

Thinking in terms of offense/defense balance, I think toning down the defensive side a little will make fights more volatile, and provide greater reward for tactical surprises and greater punishment for mistakes.

Of course, players still need to create those opportunities themselves. I think on the whole it will make for more interesting fights at all levels of play and put a greater emphasis on the individual skills of group members.

Being able to take some kills off a superior team at least provides a reward for hard work and provides incentive to keep playing, instead of the feeling of utter powerlessness a lot of new(-ish) players experience when fighting against strong opposition.

It may also create more room in the meta for less orthodox group setups.

[normanis]

a vanq tank played and specced correctly can fight off two WH for plenty long enough to escape, unless a WE does literally 500% the damage of WH it does not "rip a tank to pieces"

or when face bolstered wh/witch/any tank so many videos what clearly shows something like this. magus 40 lvl killed by low wh (he said what a loser), after moment black orc 80rr bis face wh and get wrecked by same wh. irony

[normanis]

lets say if all casuals will left game than what zerg will fight , empty zones? more empty server more longer ques for sc. even premades guild will leave game. like it was diferent warhammer project.
like it was said previous there is 0 chance at any strategy in city siege just pve, even keep lords hited back byt they are lesser than emperor or car zanek.
so dont split on casuals

[Sinisterror]

Lots of great things said in this thread. Resurrecting in keep when dying near is important. Microticks super important, aoe cap back to 9 and some twists to morales (50%- bellow to M3 and lots of things like not really useful morales making them into skills, like SM morale 150 toughness toughness for your grp 30 seconds is bad morale but when its 15 second skill 60sec CD that has stacks with toughhness buffs/pots/bellows is just nice but something )

Rampage shouldnt go through morale avoidances... should be 10 sec with 45 sec CD and 2h needed. Have to say that but if there still is 2 sec ICD in all skill mechanic DMG procs it needs to be 0,5sec max. More crit is needed like it used to be in ruin/anni had 4p bonus 5% crit / 5p bonus was +2 to some career path and this should be changed back as adding back crit to gear where it was nerfed like ruin shoulders (same with all block / parry / crit reduction.

Maybe even 7% crit staff for bw's/sorc in bloodlord dungeon because they dont do dmg without critting so imo TB should be removed and Stacking negative crit amounts nerfed.

Add +1 career skill point when rr 30 and remove +2 from sove/warlord and as a general rule copy paste set bonuses will disappoint everybody, espesially with so few Procs in gear/wpns per class. 2h WP used to have 9% crit 12% crit dmg buff, and DoK used to have 700-800 armour debuff sword, very nice but not game breaking and needed.In RoR Zealot used to have in T4 epic wpn quests 10 % chance on hit to increase build times by 50%, these are needed and espesially for someone like dps zealot + 50 % would mean 0,5 sec for melee skills as well. These will make interrupts much more important and not random. Also why 9 sec stagger with 9 aoe cap was amazing on kotbs/chosen because with skill and coordination u can kill 2-3 healers with 6 man against 18 and you could even wipe them=) i get that 9 sec is too much but 5 MINIMUM imo 6 is better. There are too much restrictions on classess and even gear with jewerly slots 3 and 4. And Runefang should be back core at least with 180 increase to str ini ws. Vigilance/Oppression/TREEHITCOMBO only shield is just too much restriction so should be removed.

9ae cap, morale changes and ICD removed or ICD 0,5s+ more proc options to every class. RP/ZE, so good at healing but dmg is pointless, bring back Raven +Transference 20 sec not 60 ( mirror something similar for dps rp) and aoe heal debuff with 50 % back to RP/ZE(remove 75%HD) but Adding set bonuses like 10% chance on hit to reduce next 2 heals for '450' within 10 seconds to all classess dps specs in some gear. Works for morale heals and potions and melee heals. Also sets can have useful procs at 2-3th bonus and 4-6 th bonus like 25 % heal nerf on hit or pilfer 3 piece or ANYTHING would be best and something for 2h tanks that invader has ' on block chance to heal by 500' but with parry ofc not block and modified. Remove set bonuses like 5 % more strikethru but add that strikethru to gear in those sets.

Remove Shield wp/dok. Rework some shield skills to 2h/Dw but not as much heals (even close) that shield wpdok can produce.

[Magusar]

The torrent of pathos.

I love to read how people go to the side of the winners - the side that zergs and takes zones / keeps, most often empty, because they don't like playing in the minority and be outnumbered, they have nothing to do, they don't have enough rewards etc. But no one talks about such things like AAO and enjoyment of the game process- this game is pvp basis game, u need to have opponents for this and the more of these opponents u can have, the more action and game process for u=more fun you are, right?
Last my character, which i geared was my WL (equiped sov yesterday, 1/3, mb more of this gear is a my solo roam journeys on the periphery of zones). I really like solo roam on it,like it was before on my wh/eng/magus, when AAO on your side cuz a lot of renown from solo kills, if u can do it at BOs and can destroy enemy supps-u have a lot of contribution and massive rewards (bags)even your faction lost the zone.
U can not solo roam, just be with duo/trio/party etc and do the same things.
Yes-its ganking of soloers or not soloers on the road.
Yes-its biting zerg's tale from behind or trying to push zerg with others wbs of outnumbered realm from flanking on keep's sieges like a premade group/s or something else.
It's fun to kill and fight in this game, as outnumbered u have much more content of this, than zerging side. If u will do it well u will have rewards for this and much funer than, just bashing the doors and pveed the lord- next, thant just switch zone-repeat.
I don't understand the principle of AAO avoidance. PPl saying is "rewards hunting", but u can have a bit lower(yes, a bit lower) rewards from the defending with aao. But not enough some kind of action and fight, not enough game. Although to each his own.

The torrent of pathos is over.