The alienation of solo/pug/casual players and it's unintended side-effects

[Rapzel]

the problem is still that the majority of casual players are nothing but renown piñatas for any organised group

RvR has two elements; numbers and organisation. You need numbers to win. You need organisation to help you win.

The biggest issue with organised premades is that they retreat and quit when stuff happens they don't like, almost immediately. Pugs tend to accept losing, and will be the inner keep with 200% AAO, long after the premades are in bed. The French (order) and Russian (when destro) seem to be exceptions to this. They always seem to be there right till the end even when massively outnumbered when they do RvR.

"Zerging" is considered a problem by certain premade groups that don't like being wiped.

Zerging is a perfectly legitimate tactic, and useful if you outnumber the enemy. It can still be exploited by the other side with organisation.

okay? thanks for your input I guess.

[BeautfulToad]

okay? thanks for your input I guess.

If you dont want me to be polite: The idea premades should get different rewards for "organising", because pugs don't deserve top tier loot, would be lethal for RvR. It is probably the single worst idea I have heard suggested in RoR.

[Amdus]

Okay, have I stated that there is no need for new players anywhere or that people that "don't play like me a unneccesary", have I quoted you or anyone out and said that the game will be perfect when there's only 2 people playing? Since you're sure of my "agenda" later on please provide proof.

You didn't explicitly state that you don't need them, but you hinted it quite clearly a few times, here are some examples:

Whenever the "sweaty tryhards who plays for 14 hrs a day" propose that there should be incentives to actually do things as a group the solo players see red, because they believe they are entitled to stuff, even though they sit AFK 90% of the time and are so incompetent they can't even be used as cannon fodder.
6 man groups got weekend event and ranked, so I am not complaining, but when I look at the rewards people for actually setting up proper WBs for ORvR and that they get the same terrible rewards as the plebs who run around without any spatial awareness or understanding of what is going on, except for whining and proposing bad sieges in RegionRvR chat, it really makes me wonder why these people continue playing the game, I guess it's the social aspect.

You can try and defend the casual player as much as you want, the problem is still that the majority of casual players are nothing but renown piñatas for any organised group and have no impact on the outcome of the campaign. They can't even be seen as a "bump I the road".

Why should you judge what's their reason behind logging and playing? They log for the social aspect? Good for them! They log to play 10 sc's/ranked a day? Very good for all of us. They log to goof around in RvR? Good for the wb's farming them and for themselves for having fun. But we log into 200-300 players now. Let's stop being dishonest, who's having fun?

that is not what my post is about as I have stated several times before, I have not begged the devs to remove casuals or anything like that, I have simply stated that I do not understand why people who play in 24 man premades do it. I do not play in 24 man premades.

Your posts have very little to do with the OP initial statement. And we are not talking about 24man wb's or premades, we're talking about the opposite, if you're under that category you should be also interested into examining the situation and bringing up some ideas instead of feeling attacked and trying to derail the topic or snapping at us.

1vs1? What are you even talking about? When did any competitive mmorpg balance around 1vs1 fights?
WoW (which is the most successful MMORPG ever) AWC is based on 1vs1 fights? Name one game where PvP is based on 1vs1 or even remotely balanced.

>"What are you talking about"

Am I supposed to talk about teflon vs casted iron pans? anyways...

I don't need to name another one, wow is the best example. Yes it is balanced around 1vs1, that's why arenas are a maximum of 5vs5 and that's why the large scale pvp in big BG's or open BG's in wow is fun and dinamic, because the time to kill is acceptable due to have the 1vs1 balanced. You do a mistake in 1vs1? You may get away with it. You do 2? You're probably dead. The mistake window decreases the bigger the numbers are aswell. You can roam in the world, especially in older expansions and have a lot of world pvp fun, because you have equal chances against any class, it all depends on your talent spec, gear and professions and of course, and the most important: SKILL.

Uh, 6vs6 community was based on setting up fights and queueing against each other before ranked was introduced, there was a reason Caledor/Temple of Isha was only available to 6 man groups for several years, currently it solves the issue with griefing players. Was the 6vs6 fights in locked zones (doesn't reward renown or medallions) also win trading to you? Because that was done by the 6vs6 community as well, and if you are a part of that I guess you are well aware of all the fights that happened in between the WCs in CW.

No I'm not part of anything besides my guild and alliance because I'm a filthy casual. And I don't participate in anything that has the slightest ressemblance to wintrading because I detest it. The 6vs6 community you speak of got ranked, which was also a good call for new players that are more accustomed to other MMO's which is basically 99% of the new players, it offered them a ressemblance to ranked BG's/Arenas which is what most PvP enthusiasts enjoy, and this is supposed to be the top PvP game out there, because everything revolves around it.

Also where do I mention TTK?

You don't. I mentioned it because it's a crucial factor that correlates with the engagement in ranked. Nobody wants to play for 10 minutes and end up with a draw, I don't think it should be explained further.

First of all I have not defended any current system, 2nd I have still not addressed your previous posts and I still do not intend to do so.

You are acting as a purist that pretends everything is alright or that attempts to derail the discussion by just creating discord in the debate without offering anything of substance besides extravagancies such as who's more deserving of rewards than others. On this line, I'll tell you the opposite though: A player that acting solo gets kills and medallions and renown is more deserving than someone that needs a wb behind him. You could also step down of the discussion if you're incapable of taking points that attack your arguments.

I've seen 3 wow servers die out in the past 5 years, servers that went from 3k players to 1k then to 500 then to 200 and then to 40. That highlighted that those 40 were the "elitists" while the other 2960 where the casuals. Now, do you think any MMO is playable with 40 elitists? or are MMO's playable when you have a huge amount of "casuals" that bring the randomness and the surprise factor while the "elitists" farm them and climb the gear ladder thanks to them?

?

What's with the surprised questionmark? You don't think there's something to learn from the failures of others?

Using the same wow example, why shouldn't a model that works be followed? What's the point of following the model of a failed MMO? To end up meeting failure? I don't get it.
And no I'm not saying that this should become wow 2.0, but I am saying that we could learn from the things that made wow to be in the position that it has or rather, had. Many wow killers, this one included; Yet the king still stands.

[Garamore]

Not sure WoW is still around because of its PvP balance....

[oilpourer]

I agree with most of what was written in the OP but don't see how its "alienation of the pugs". Pugs got solo queue cities officially sanctioned and implemented, improvement of rewards from bags and forts, and you get bags from roleplaying UPS (boxes). A random fort lockout timer was also added because of crybaby pugtrash.

What did everyone else get? Nothing. There is almost no reason to play the game once you have gear. The game became all about gear and not about having good fights. All of the good players left and ranked is somehow more dead than it was season 1 with full power shield dok and rsh. City was always a means to an end and isn't interesting plus forts are just an insult to the intelligence of the playerbase.

[Rapzel]

Okay, have I stated that there is no need for new players anywhere or that people that "don't play like me a unneccesary", have I quoted you or anyone out and said that the game will be perfect when there's only 2 people playing? Since you're sure of my "agenda" later on please provide proof.

You didn't explicitly state that you don't need them, but you hinted it quite clearly a few times, here are some examples:

Whenever the "sweaty tryhards who plays for 14 hrs a day" propose that there should be incentives to actually do things as a group the solo players see red, because they believe they are entitled to stuff, even though they sit AFK 90% of the time and are so incompetent they can't even be used as cannon fodder.
6 man groups got weekend event and ranked, so I am not complaining, but when I look at the rewards people for actually setting up proper WBs for ORvR and that they get the same terrible rewards as the plebs who run around without any spatial awareness or understanding of what is going on, except for whining and proposing bad sieges in RegionRvR chat, it really makes me wonder why these people continue playing the game, I guess it's the social aspect.

You can try and defend the casual player as much as you want, the problem is still that the majority of casual players are nothing but renown piñatas for any organised group and have no impact on the outcome of the campaign. They can't even be seen as a "bump I the road".

Why should you judge what's their reason behind logging and playing? They log for the social aspect? Good for them! They log to play 10 sc's/ranked a day? Very good for all of us. They log to goof around in RvR? Good for the wb's farming them and for themselves for having fun. But we log into 200-300 players now. Let's stop being dishonest, who's having fun?

that is not what my post is about as I have stated several times before, I have not begged the devs to remove casuals or anything like that, I have simply stated that I do not understand why people who play in 24 man premades do it. I do not play in 24 man premades.

Your posts have very little to do with the OP initial statement. And we are not talking about 24man wb's or premades, we're talking about the opposite, if you're under that category you should be also interested into examining the situation and bringing up some ideas instead of feeling attacked and trying to derail the topic or snapping at us.

1vs1? What are you even talking about? When did any competitive mmorpg balance around 1vs1 fights?
WoW (which is the most successful MMORPG ever) AWC is based on 1vs1 fights? Name one game where PvP is based on 1vs1 or even remotely balanced.

>"What are you talking about"

Am I supposed to talk about teflon vs casted iron pans? anyways...

I don't need to name another one, wow is the best example. Yes it is balanced around 1vs1, that's why arenas are a maximum of 5vs5 and that's why the large scale pvp in big BG's or open BG's in wow is fun and dinamic, because the time to kill is acceptable due to have the 1vs1 balanced. You do a mistake in 1vs1? You may get away with it. You do 2? You're probably dead. The mistake window decreases the bigger the numbers are aswell. You can roam in the world, especially in older expansions and have a lot of world pvp fun, because you have equal chances against any class, it all depends on your talent spec, gear and professions and of course, and the most important: SKILL.

Uh, 6vs6 community was based on setting up fights and queueing against each other before ranked was introduced, there was a reason Caledor/Temple of Isha was only available to 6 man groups for several years, currently it solves the issue with griefing players. Was the 6vs6 fights in locked zones (doesn't reward renown or medallions) also win trading to you? Because that was done by the 6vs6 community as well, and if you are a part of that I guess you are well aware of all the fights that happened in between the WCs in CW.

No I'm not part of anything besides my guild and alliance because I'm a filthy casual. And I don't participate in anything that has the slightest ressemblance to wintrading because I detest it. The 6vs6 community you speak of got ranked, which was also a good call for new players that are more accustomed to other MMO's which is basically 99% of the new players, it offered them a ressemblance to ranked BG's/Arenas which is what most PvP enthusiasts enjoy, and this is supposed to be the top PvP game out there, because everything revolves around it.

Also where do I mention TTK?

You don't. I mentioned it because it's a crucial factor that correlates with the engagement in ranked. Nobody wants to play for 10 minutes and end up with a draw, I don't think it should be explained further.

First of all I have not defended any current system, 2nd I have still not addressed your previous posts and I still do not intend to do so.

You are acting as a purist that pretends everything is alright or that attempts to derail the discussion by just creating discord in the debate without offering anything of substance besides extravagancies such as who's more deserving of rewards than others. On this line, I'll tell you the opposite though: A player that acting solo gets kills and medallions and renown is more deserving than someone that needs a wb behind him. You could also step down of the discussion if you're incapable of taking points that attack your arguments.

I've seen 3 wow servers die out in the past 5 years, servers that went from 3k players to 1k then to 500 then to 200 and then to 40. That highlighted that those 40 were the "elitists" while the other 2960 where the casuals. Now, do you think any MMO is playable with 40 elitists? or are MMO's playable when you have a huge amount of "casuals" that bring the randomness and the surprise factor while the "elitists" farm them and climb the gear ladder thanks to them?

?

What's with the surprised questionmark? You don't think there's something to learn from the failures of others?

Using the same wow example, why shouldn't a model that works be followed? What's the point of following the model of a failed MMO? To end up meeting failure? I don't get it.
And no I'm not saying that this should become wow 2.0, but I am saying that we could learn from the things that made wow to be in the position that it has or rather, had. Many wow killers, this one included; Yet the king still stands.

Surprise! They're not aimed at you or OP (they're here to explain certain misconceptions), what a surprise they have little to do with the original thread statement!

You have no idea about what I think about certain things, and I do not hint at removing casuals from the game, I state that I do not understand why people keep playing in premade wbs when they do not get any benefits from doing so, this originated from a newer player wondering why people do not want to organise and group up.

I don't judge them, but stating facts such as "a individual solo player has no impact on the campaign's outcome" is apparently casual-phobic.

WoW PvP is based around 3vs3 and has been since WotLK, you cannot possibly believe that every career is equal in wow PvP.

Never been a purist, if you think spending 5 hrs in a zone for 20 vanquisher medallions is fine and dandy then go ahead, but I will continue to avoid ORvR while I can because to me it's about as fun as the PvE game.
Here's one of my thoughts; the bullshit nerf to locks rewards is terrible all around, it makes no sense to me. I have no issues giving away vanqs like candy instead of this current terrible system of having to RNG good bags with expensive parts.
I needed to hit RR 76 I think before I got my subjugator weapon and could upgrade to fortress, quite sure a certain famous slayer needed to hit 84 to get his fortress axe, I have 5 pairs of vanq gloves but no chest on my KotBS, I unlocked invader and almost full sov on my chosen before I unlocked vanq.
I still don't have vanq unlock on the majority of my tanks AFAIK. I don't have any issues with giving 50 vanqs per zone lock to solo players even.

This does not mean that I don't think that full guild wbs that participate in a fort and win should not be rewarded for showing up and carrying their faction to victory, instead getting the SAME rewards as someone who "guarded" a BO for 25 mins and then proceeded to "guard" jail.
Why should I join a 24 man premade for city and risk the chances of getting locked in a 2 hr. city fight where I might lose and waste a fortune on potions when I can just solo queue and get stomped or stomp for 30 mins and get away with the same rewards?
I see no issues with rewarding guilds who field a full WB and win forts and/or cities with event items, sentinel jewels or crafting items. Just like weekend events favours 6 man SCS groups.
But don't worry casuals will post thread after thread about how such a system would be unfair, just like they believe that weekend event should be solo queue only.

The question mark is because oh wow that's the thing you keep quoting me about and try to some how tell me I'm wrong about, casuals in this game are just fodder to premade elitists.

[Satirico]

It's important that more and more players are seeing how bad RoR is actually. And all "they" care about are for useless or non wanted features, like ghost cities. They just forgot to give attention to the most important element of this game: RvR.
I'm not against new stuff, I love it, but you can't drive a truck and go check its oil and forget the direction. And RoR is this truck while dev team just forgot the direction of it. Even they say "oh we are doing changes and et cetera", we have weeks without patches, without changes, and the last patch was full focused on the new stuff.
I agree 100% with this post, but I fear "they" won't care for that once they seem to have lost the direction of the server. They took too much time for ranked development and secondary cities and forgot to care of rvr and classes balancing and many other things.
They could work on seasonal stuff for rvr, for example, balancing rotation for classes, while they work with the new stuff.
Max always says they have a team working on it, other team working that, but we don't see the basic happening, and this, imo, is the most unmotivational thing to happen to a game that needs attention always.

Balance and so forth is made by so called "realm champions", because of the amount of harassment Devs had to endure for experimenting with balance.
These changes will be implemented before the start of each new ranked season which I think is going to yield about 2-3 balance patches each year or something.
That said, I agree I would rather see balance patches than the implementation of "Return to Ekrund" event.

I did not know about this. I stayed some time away from RoR. But that was the most stupid idea they could have in the whole server history. And it's clear now that this idea didn't work.

[BeautfulToad]

I did not know about this. I stayed some time away from RoR. But that was the most stupid idea they could have in the whole server history. And it's clear now that this idea didn't work.

I can understand it, people blame way too much on "balance", when organisation, group composition and sheer numbers explain a lot of victories. Balance discussions are nearly always toxic.

I can't think of any game I play where balance is taken as seriously by devs as this one.

[Satirico]

I did not know about this. I stayed some time away from RoR. But that was the most stupid idea they could have in the whole server history. And it's clear now that this idea didn't work.

I can understand it, people blame way too much on "balance", when organisation, group composition and sheer numbers explain a lot of victories. Balance discussions are nearly always toxic.

I can't think of any game I play where balance is taken as seriously by devs as this one.

I disagree but don't wan't to judge. Hum.... balances are coming soon then, by the patch they just released today. Hope some good stuff happen for both RvR and classes balancing. Besides I think these changes should be monthly.

[TreefAM]

Good, killing solo players is my favorite since I KNOW they will write about it in their blogs