The alienation of solo/pug/casual players and it's unintended side-effects

We want to hear your thoughts and ideas.
Forum rules
Before posting on this forum, be sure to read the Terms of Use

Structured class balance suggestions belong in the Balance Proposal subforum. Class-related discussion in this section are considered as ongoing debates and ARE NOT reviewed for balance changes.
Wraithedge
Posts: 135

Re: The alienation of solo/pug/casual players and it's unintended side-effects

Post#81 » Sat Oct 16, 2021 2:25 am

Sulorie wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 1:46 am Record it, I'd like see those WE doing what you wrote.

That always sounds like an efficient way to end the discussion all-together while ensure nothing ever gets done. Piling impediments up to keep the observer in their place.

I am not going to go download software, tune my PC for recording, secure some online storage space, pursue and record data, process and upload it, inform you, and then eagerly wait for your assessment.

If you don't want to entertain the idea then just don't. I don't care a bit. If you do then look into it or don't, also don't care a bit.

I report on what I see happening. That's it. if the response is "well that's not good enough" then why waste time bumping a thread you don't believe anyway? Just ignore it and let it go.

Honestly, it isn't my problem. Its not my server or my project. As a tester I give what feedback I can and report on what seems to be a problem to me. I've listed times and paces, not names of course, but levels and gear. If no one wants to hear it, then it just stays that way. Ultimately not my problem.

Playing destro now is soooo much better though. WHs still hurt, but they are nowhere near the OP juggernauts that WEs are.

Ads
havartii
Posts: 423

Re: The alienation of solo/pug/casual players and it's unintended side-effects

Post#82 » Sat Oct 16, 2021 2:37 am

With the population at record lows.. Do you think the devs will finally listen?? Maybe.. But probably not.
Order: 70 AM / 76 RP/ 72 Knight/ 58 WH
Destro: 82 Sham / 79 Zealot/ 70 DoK /70 Magus /68 Mara
Many alts on both sides now ruined by new currency change

Sulorie
Posts: 7219

Re: The alienation of solo/pug/casual players and it's unintended side-effects

Post#83 » Sat Oct 16, 2021 2:49 am

penagos22 wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 2:14 am
Sulorie, dude, it's always you taking the opposite of everything said, If we continue as you say, you will play this game alone.
in this link you can find evidence of what is being said https://builder.returnofreckoning.com/career/witch-elf
I asked to prove, that a single WE kills multiple tanks and healers, while getting attacked by all, including dps and then vanishes again.
This is in any stretch of imagination only possible, if all victims are afk but it sounded like this wasn't the case.

You posting a link to class builder is supposed to show what? :shock:

Recording costs no performance even on a 6 years old NV GPU and just runs in the background and there are no online storage requirements, when you upload it to YouTube.
Dying is no option.

User avatar
tazdingo
Posts: 1192

Re: The alienation of solo/pug/casual players and it's unintended side-effects

Post#84 » Sat Oct 16, 2021 2:53 am

a vanq tank played and specced correctly can fight off two WH for plenty long enough to escape, unless a WE does literally 500% the damage of WH it does not "rip a tank to pieces"

penagos22
Posts: 207

Re: The alienation of solo/pug/casual players and it's unintended side-effects

Post#85 » Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:37 am

tazdingo wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 2:53 am a vanq tank played and specced correctly can fight off two WH for plenty long enough to escape, unless a WE does literally 500% the damage of WH it does not "rip a tank to pieces"
To me the truth, it does not bother me that a WE destroys me as long as it is in the field in which they are strong, 1 v 1, that is, if you were left alone and you and are ambushed by a WE you are dead, but basically 4 WE get together and they can wipe half aldorf does not make sense, and this is solved very easily by touching the hitpoints, armor, resistances without touching the damage even leaving the carees as they were. What would be a good mechanic, the WE has the advantage of choosing when to fight but if she has bad judgment, punish her with everything.
https://web.archive.org/web/20081217044 ... aspx?id=22

Sodexo
Posts: 5

Re: The alienation of solo/pug/casual players and it's unintended side-effects

Post#86 » Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:33 am

Wraithedge wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 2:25 am
Sulorie wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 1:46 am Record it, I'd like see those WE doing what you wrote.
That always sounds like an efficient way to end the discussion all-together while ensure nothing ever gets done. Piling impediments up to keep the observer in their place.
This. If he hasn't noticed how certain classes are performing by just playing the game then you can't help him anyway.

And let me tell you... that guy has a strong connection to the devs and they seem to listen to him regarding balancing... not gonna end well.
Wraithedge wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 2:25 am Playing destro now is soooo much better though. WHs still hurt, but they are nowhere near the OP juggernauts that WEs are.
Yeah, that's a very common and well known thing. When I play destro and get new abilities Im always thinking "wow, neat". When I play order and get new abilities (e.g. on the SM) I go "WTF that adds nothing useful at all". They spent a lot more time tweaking these destro classes. They are well rounded and play easier. They are not only stronger on paper in direct comparisson, they are also stronger in game in pretty much any situation from 1:1 to wb:wb. Yet a lot of destro players here on the forum trying to tell you otherwise. First thing you always gonna hear is BUT SLAYERS... yeah, slayers might be overperforming but it's pretty much the only order class left that is an actual threat for destro. On order a lot of classes got nerfed and left behind in the dirt with messed up trees and builds.

Your feeling about destro is 100% right.

User avatar
Amdus
Posts: 115

Re: The alienation of solo/pug/casual players and it's unintended side-effects

Post#87 » Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:45 am

penagos22 wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 2:14 am Sulorie, dude, it's always you taking the opposite of everything said, If we continue as you say, you will play this game alone.
in this link you can find evidence of what is being said https://builder.returnofreckoning.com/career/witch-elf
For some unknown reason that I have yet to decipher, math, being something that applies to everything in this universe, it doesn't apply in here. You could link a skill of X class that does 3 times the damage of the same skill of the mirror class, and people will still try to defend that you're wrong because of X anecdote, or ask you to show them more anecdotal evidence.
Sodexo wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:33 am
Wraithedge wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 2:25 am Playing destro now is soooo much better though. WHs still hurt, but they are nowhere near the OP juggernauts that WEs are.
Yeah, that's a very common and well known thing. When I play destro and get new abilities Im always thinking "wow, neat". When I play order and get new abilities (e.g. on the SM) I go "WTF that adds nothing useful at all". They spent a lot more time tweaking these destro classes. They are well rounded and play easier. They are not only stronger on paper in direct comparisson, they are also stronger in game in pretty much any situation from 1:1 to wb:wb. Yet a lot of destro players here on the forum trying to tell you otherwise. First thing you always gonna hear is BUT SLAYERS... yeah, slayers might be overperforming but it's pretty much the only order class left that is an actual threat for destro. On order a lot of classes got nerfed and left behind in the dirt with messed up trees and builds.

Your feeling about destro is 100% right.
To keep it related to the topic, I'd say that Slayers aren't overperforming, it's just that every other class is underperforming. Wrapping all of this within the TTK and balance subject, I simply don't see what would be the benefit of nerfing Slayers. It will only make the ttk even higher for order and slow down the pvp pace even further.

Things regarding balance that don't make much sense, along with what has been said about WH/WE is how is it possible that those classes have more defensive CD's than some tanks and in the case of WH than all tanks? The only tank that has a skill similar is the BG with elite training and still is not as powerful as the WH one. WH and WE have to be the classes with max burst? Fine with that, but why do they have so much survivavility and escaping tools aswell? Pick one or the other but both? Kinda ridiculous if you ask me.

On the same line you can also talk about how ridiculously OP some healers are. Being DoK and WP the most clear examples. Their main stat should be willpower to increase their healing powers, yet they all can get away without speccing willpower and instead becoming tanks socketing armor and wound talis while retaining all their healing performance. Again something that increases the TTK. Or archmages/shamans also having extremely OP CC abilities, damage and heals while Sorc/BW are glass cannons that will die 100% when a melee or two have pulled/CC'd them. Tanks are also being forced to simply be guard bots with some changes such as removing runefang as a base tactic for the knight and instead making it so high up the talent tree, why not keep it the way it was, with the value of 240? This would solve the kotbs meme damage to a great measure. All other tanks suffer from the same issue, and by taking their minimal but still some damage out of the equation the TTK also increases.

In short this balance isn't real balance, is just a TTK increase that it only generates frustration in cities where you need 10 minutes to land the first kill, just so the team that landed the first kill ends up with 400 kills to 0. Or to make a great amount of ranked matches end up in a draw because in 10, not even 1000 minutes anything will die. Same applies to small scale and solo playstyle, that's why the only viable and most reliable playstyle to achieve and secure a victory is zerging.

Caduceus
Posts: 653

Re: The alienation of solo/pug/casual players and it's unintended side-effects

Post#88 » Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:05 am

Personally, I think the healer-archetype is what needs to be looked at in order to find solutions for the high TTK.

It makes no sense to me that the single-most impactful archetype gets the highest range of all classes and high natural survivability (in part due to willpower being an inferior stat), be practically AP independent and hardly affected by being pressured by most classes.

In the case of Shield DoK/WP they even get to deal a significant amount of damage that is quite impactful in 6v6, while enjoying most of the benefits I just listed.

There's something wrong with the risk-reward balance within the healer-archetype.
"I watched a snail crawl along the edge of a straight razor. That's my dream; that's my nightmare. Crawling, slithering, along the edge of a straight razor... and surviving." - Colonel Walter E. Kurtz

Ads
Rapzel
Posts: 386

Re: The alienation of solo/pug/casual players and it's unintended side-effects

Post#89 » Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:39 am

Wraithedge wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 2:25 am
Sulorie wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 1:46 am Record it, I'd like see those WE doing what you wrote.

That always sounds like an efficient way to end the discussion all-together while ensure nothing ever gets done. Piling impediments up to keep the observer in their place.

I am not going to go download software, tune my PC for recording, secure some online storage space, pursue and record data, process and upload it, inform you, and then eagerly wait for your assessment.

If you don't want to entertain the idea then just don't. I don't care a bit. If you do then look into it or don't, also don't care a bit.

I report on what I see happening. That's it. if the response is "well that's not good enough" then why waste time bumping a thread you don't believe anyway? Just ignore it and let it go.

Honestly, it isn't my problem. Its not my server or my project. As a tester I give what feedback I can and report on what seems to be a problem to me. I've listed times and paces, not names of course, but levels and gear. If no one wants to hear it, then it just stays that way. Ultimately not my problem.

Playing destro now is soooo much better though. WHs still hurt, but they are nowhere near the OP juggernauts that WEs are.
The best way to be labeled as a pillar of knowledge is to fabricate a story so obviously exaggerated no one with anything closely related to intellect can't see through the plot holes of the story and then when you get called out on bullshit and need to provide any type of proof, you go to full defensive and say that you don't need to prove anything because what you said are facts.
Facts that you won't back up with empirical evidence because you don't want to install recording software or upload something to any of the multiple free video platforms that do exist.
I wonder why? 🤔

Sulorie
Posts: 7219

Re: The alienation of solo/pug/casual players and it's unintended side-effects

Post#90 » Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:45 am

Sodexo wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:33 am
Wraithedge wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 2:25 am
Sulorie wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 1:46 am Record it, I'd like see those WE doing what you wrote.
That always sounds like an efficient way to end the discussion all-together while ensure nothing ever gets done. Piling impediments up to keep the observer in their place.
This. If he hasn't noticed how certain classes are performing by just playing the game then you can't help him anyway.

And let me tell you... that guy has a strong connection to the devs and they seem to listen to him regarding balancing... not gonna end well.
Wraithedge wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 2:25 am Playing destro now is soooo much better though. WHs still hurt, but they are nowhere near the OP juggernauts that WEs are.
Yeah, that's a very common and well known thing. When I play destro and get new abilities Im always thinking "wow, neat". When I play order and get new abilities (e.g. on the SM) I go "WTF that adds nothing useful at all". They spent a lot more time tweaking these destro classes. They are well rounded and play easier. They are not only stronger on paper in direct comparisson, they are also stronger in game in pretty much any situation from 1:1 to wb:wb. Yet a lot of destro players here on the forum trying to tell you otherwise. First thing you always gonna hear is BUT SLAYERS... yeah, slayers might be overperforming but it's pretty much the only order class left that is an actual threat for destro. On order a lot of classes got nerfed and left behind in the dirt with messed up trees and builds.

Your feeling about destro is 100% right.
First post, new account. Who of the current posters has to support him-/herself? It's getting old. :lol:
Dying is no option.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Werioz and 7 guests