Cripts & Tunnels (C&T - Sentinel Set) - "Rework"
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Structured class balance suggestions belong in the Balance Proposal subforum. Class-related discussion in this section are considered as ongoing debates and ARE NOT reviewed for balance changes.
Re: Cripts & Tunnels (C&T - Sentinel Set) - "Rework"
I see the problem here, we can clearly see that the devs love order more, they got more content for 40+ ! Nerf order! (And of course nerf Rampage!)
#AllClassesMatter
“A man can fail many times, but he isn't a failure until he begins to blame somebody else.”
― John Burroughs
“A man can fail many times, but he isn't a failure until he begins to blame somebody else.”
― John Burroughs
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Re: Cripts & Tunnels (C&T - Sentinel Set) - "Rework"
confirm bbbe is much easier than cnt.
bbbe can be done with undergeared ppl, no voice, no coordination while cnt needs good equipment and good coordination.
the only annoying thing is the current bug in bbbe where you get ported into the bosses guts and need to book out....
bbbe can be done with undergeared ppl, no voice, no coordination while cnt needs good equipment and good coordination.
the only annoying thing is the current bug in bbbe where you get ported into the bosses guts and need to book out....
- nebelwerfer
- Posts: 646
Re: Cripts & Tunnels (C&T - Sentinel Set) - "Rework"
Maybe you'll find some useful information in this old thread i made about the same topic
https://www.returnofreckoning.com/forum ... 46#p361146
https://www.returnofreckoning.com/forum ... 46#p361146
Re: Cripts & Tunnels (C&T - Sentinel Set) - "Rework"
Now factor in the bugs in BB (not the NPC ones that are supposed to be there!) and those fast BB/BE runs become nightmares when the dungeon decides to just not work.
Both looks like they could do with a look over; bug fixing for BB and completion time for CnT.
Both looks like they could do with a look over; bug fixing for BB and completion time for CnT.
Zomega: RR8x Zealot
Re: Cripts & Tunnels (C&T - Sentinel Set) - "Rework"
Not rly PVE expert or anything did few CT runs, but bugs happen in CT too plus all stuff above...Omegus wrote: ↑Tue Jan 11, 2022 3:37 pm Now factor in the bugs in BB (not the NPC ones that are supposed to be there!) and those fast BB/BE runs become nightmares when the dungeon decides to just not work.
Both looks like they could do with a look over; bug fixing for BB and completion time for CnT.
Re: Cripts & Tunnels (C&T - Sentinel Set) - "Rework"
Honestly you can just remove the useless smuggler (Seraphine) in CnT, to gain about 10 min. Litteraly zero interest since she doesnt even drop anything, and you cannot pass over that step unlike the 2nd miniboss (Reaper).
I do CnT regularly and my fastest run ever was about 80 minutes. Most of the time, with 3 dps and good players it's more about 1h30 - 1h45 on average.
When I hear you can rush BB/BE for half the time, and that you can even do that with one healer, I think either BB/BE is too easy (or CnT being too long), or Destru classes got unfair advantages in PvE.
CnT got also many timesinks wich are not especially fun : regenerative trashes and bosses (Skaven warlocks/moulders, Banshee), tanky ones (Reaper, Spider, Seraphine) and plain useless ones with seraphine.
Not to forget the full AP drain by rat Ogres (trashes and miniboss), and painful cd+cast increasers by various skavens too, and you get a very grindy experience.
Adding to that CnT dont drop blue seeds (Purple ones are like 3 in 30 runs or so), no level 40 stuff either (sentinel blue stuff are lv 37), making the loot even less desirable than Gunbad wich I dont think is a good thing, in term of game design.
Anyway, mechanics are too different and need serious evening out for both factions. It's already hard enough to run CnT once a week to not have to spend 2h into... (btw it's the average time for Bastion Stairs, where you can only bring 2 dps)...
ps : already mentioned, but if you add bugs on top of that (timing issue with entities spawning after 1s instead of 10s, see bug report), you can easily add one or two wipe on specific bosses, piling even more time over an already lenghty dungeon. And those - unwanted and unpredictable - bugs occur in a regular basis.
I do CnT regularly and my fastest run ever was about 80 minutes. Most of the time, with 3 dps and good players it's more about 1h30 - 1h45 on average.
When I hear you can rush BB/BE for half the time, and that you can even do that with one healer, I think either BB/BE is too easy (or CnT being too long), or Destru classes got unfair advantages in PvE.
CnT got also many timesinks wich are not especially fun : regenerative trashes and bosses (Skaven warlocks/moulders, Banshee), tanky ones (Reaper, Spider, Seraphine) and plain useless ones with seraphine.
Not to forget the full AP drain by rat Ogres (trashes and miniboss), and painful cd+cast increasers by various skavens too, and you get a very grindy experience.
Adding to that CnT dont drop blue seeds (Purple ones are like 3 in 30 runs or so), no level 40 stuff either (sentinel blue stuff are lv 37), making the loot even less desirable than Gunbad wich I dont think is a good thing, in term of game design.
Anyway, mechanics are too different and need serious evening out for both factions. It's already hard enough to run CnT once a week to not have to spend 2h into... (btw it's the average time for Bastion Stairs, where you can only bring 2 dps)...
ps : already mentioned, but if you add bugs on top of that (timing issue with entities spawning after 1s instead of 10s, see bug report), you can easily add one or two wipe on specific bosses, piling even more time over an already lenghty dungeon. And those - unwanted and unpredictable - bugs occur in a regular basis.
Re: Cripts & Tunnels (C&T - Sentinel Set) - "Rework"
BBBE is around 40-60 min standard if you arent rushing it. CT is about 60 min not much difference. While I agree BBBE is much easier think there are other places the devs could use their limited time and energy.
Also never go with 2-2-2 setup in PvE make it 1-3-2. If you spent 2h on CT you probably need to look at what you can improve.
Also never go with 2-2-2 setup in PvE make it 1-3-2. If you spent 2h on CT you probably need to look at what you can improve.
Moonlapse and VII
Re: Cripts & Tunnels (C&T - Sentinel Set) - "Rework"
I did both Dungeons a couple of times now with really good groups, over geared groups, bad groups and newbies.
You can definitely blast through both Dungeons almost the same with a coordinated group that knows whats going on.
While if playing with normal/undergeared/unexperienced players you could have an equally horrible time on both factions.
My top times so far were:
You will have the best timeruns with dual choppa/slayer & either a solo tank and another dps or a 2nd offensiv specced Tank contributing to the dmg.
If you couple a run with 3 DDs, 1 def tank, 1 off tank and a shield dok/wp you can blast through the lower level Dungeons insanely fast.(or if overgeared even 1 tank, 4dps, 1 heal)
I guess the fastest setups would be:
Difficulty
I found that concerning bossmechanics BB/BE is a lot more difficult than C&T. As far as i know no boss is bugged in C&T unlike in BB/BE, making the pressure on healers in BB/BE far higher than in C&T. And i played all archtypes in every Dungeon.
Tanking is easier in BB/BE though.
You can definitely blast through both Dungeons almost the same with a coordinated group that knows whats going on.
While if playing with normal/undergeared/unexperienced players you could have an equally horrible time on both factions.
My top times so far were:
- Gunbad = 50min (with solithex)
- C&T = 45min
- BB/BE = 40min
- BS = 80min
- HV = 40min
You will have the best timeruns with dual choppa/slayer & either a solo tank and another dps or a 2nd offensiv specced Tank contributing to the dmg.
If you couple a run with 3 DDs, 1 def tank, 1 off tank and a shield dok/wp you can blast through the lower level Dungeons insanely fast.(or if overgeared even 1 tank, 4dps, 1 heal)
I guess the fastest setups would be:
- 2-2-2 = 2x SM/BO, 2x Slayer/Choppa, Shield Dok/WP & any second healer
- 1-3-2 = SM/BO, 3x Slayer/Choppa, Shield Dok/WP & any second healer
- 1-4-1 = SM/BO, 4x Slayer/Choppa, Shield Dok/WP (only did it in Gunbad and BB/BE sofar)
- 2-3-1 = SM/BO & BG/IB, 3x Slayer/Choppa, Shield Dok/WP
Difficulty
I found that concerning bossmechanics BB/BE is a lot more difficult than C&T. As far as i know no boss is bugged in C&T unlike in BB/BE, making the pressure on healers in BB/BE far higher than in C&T. And i played all archtypes in every Dungeon.
Tanking is easier in BB/BE though.
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Re: Cripts & Tunnels (C&T - Sentinel Set) - "Rework"
i feel good now with my 52min for CnT :p
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Re: Cripts & Tunnels (C&T - Sentinel Set) - "Rework"
Remove the spider mini and Seraphine mini in crypt. Remove both rat minis in tunnels (forgot their names) and total dungeon time should be alot More equall. Order has (5 or 6?)”mini” heros WHO drops nothing. Destro have 2-3? Shouldnt be to hard to balance really. Also as mentioned before, Destro Heros are tank and spank zerg style, Order alot more "use a specific tactic" oriented.
Easy fix if ya care about time and effort it takes.
Easy fix if ya care about time and effort it takes.
Last edited by Tetzou on Wed Jan 12, 2022 5:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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