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Realm Champions not needed, we need Time Zone Champions

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emiliorv
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Posts: 1295

Re: Realm Champions not needed, we need Time Zone Champions

Post#111 » Fri Jan 28, 2022 9:36 am

knick wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 1:32 pm
emiliorv wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:06 am
Garamore wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 8:27 am
Also ranked stats showing all the top dps, heals and tanks are order
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What a time to be alive

Top6 are order classes....looks like game is finally balanced....

https://www.returnofreckoning.com/forum ... hp?t=42663
dont know how this numbers are calculated but its obvious not the total truth
with fantasy we can have any interpretation to make own point more falid
for example top 10 dd´s - 0 order DD´s but 5 destro (100%) but order has top dd´s?
top 30 are 15 dd´s - 9 destro (or 60%) 6 order
top 45 are 19 dd´s - 11 destro (or 57 %) 8 order
top 60 are 24 dd´s - 14 destro (or 58 %) 10 order

top 10 player - 8 destro (or 80%) 2 order
top 15 player - 11 destro (or 73%) 4 order
top 30 player - 20 destro (or 66%) 10 order
top 45 player - 28 destro (or 62%) 17 order
top 50 - 31 destro (or 62%) player 19 order
top 100 - 56 destro (or 56%) 44 order

>than 1000 points 128 player - 67 destro 61 order
>than 1300 points 83 player - 48 destro 35 order
>than 1500 points 44 player - 27 destro 17 order
>than 1700 points 25 player - 17 destro 8 order

see win rates are nice. But overall order destro comparison by player count shows that destro is represented more often and in higher rankings
You cant be serious trying to use players mmr as any kind of "balance check"....the fact is that you have more chances to win playing order classes, the meta is clear: WL+SL+WP+RP+KOTBS Have the highest winrate.

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Everdin
Posts: 555

Re: Realm Champions not needed, we need Time Zone Champions

Post#112 » Fri Jan 28, 2022 9:40 am

Garamore wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 8:32 am The funny thing about this post is that the game actually needs an imbalance otherwise no zones get taken as with equal numbers/organisation its too easy to defend. If you have 2-3 organised wbs you can defend most keeps against any numbers. Lots of the keeps you can easily get into even with defenders trying to block the path and they become very difficult to take so without the imbalance no zones would get pushed.

For a little bit of time last night Order had some AAO and I was bored running around trying to find where the 4wbs of order were (turns out they were already in the keep). I would take AAO for destro any day of the week and have been in the fortunate position to have pretty much had that in the times I rvr for the last 8 months.
While I fully agree with you on the point that there is imbalance needed to get progress in the zones (what i dislike, but that what it is and not easy to change), I'm asking myself if you really believe in this number things you are posting again and again from (euorpean)-night time. Do you really filter out the last weeks? Not sure about the time between 11:00pm and 9:00am asian and euopean timezone, but daytime was horrible for order.

Not saying this is not happening vice versa from time to time, as I mentioned a lot of times in the forum these things changes. But pointing out a little timeframe on two days in between weeks is bad statistic
#AllClassesMatter

“A man can fail many times, but he isn't a failure until he begins to blame somebody else.”

― John Burroughs

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Butzinjo
Posts: 48

Re: Realm Champions not needed, we need Time Zone Champions

Post#113 » Fri Jan 28, 2022 9:59 am

Meliannia wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 1:56 am
NSKaneda wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 1:11 am

26th of January, 23 (11pm) Altdorf time - that's EU prime.

Please cease your nonsense.
anyone who thinks 11pm on tuesday night is CET or GMT Prime time clearly has no conapt of a full time job
people who work and are up for work at 5am or 6am are not in fort til midnight

10pm could be prime time on a friday night or saturday night possible
but a tuesday weekday?

nonsense. plz stop with the obscure grabbing at straws.
Yeah, U right. I would say EU-Primetime is from 20-23 (8-11pm) Altdorf time. I think that is the time "people with a full time jop" and kids can easyly play. So let us look at the picture, in these 3 hours Order must have managed to push through 3-6+ zones while being extremly outnumbered by destro (as u stated). On top thats all had to be happened more or less at the same time. Maybe we have a balance problem after all.

Sorry, i´m playing for 1,5 year now, only destro. The first 6 month destro was dominating. I would say since April 2021 this time is over, so the last 9-10 month Destro gets "stomped" on a regular base. Man i think we had times where IC dont get over 2-3 stars. And now in january, after one week where u had to work for your Medals/bags u come to the Fourm and cry rivers about X-Realmers and Destro generally stomping Order with 3x the numbers order have.

But what do i know, i play only 2-3 days a week in EU-Primetime (mo,tu,"sa"), maybe i should play on other days to know what u mean. From my point off view the last 2 weeks the numbers where more or less even. But still it feels like destro lose more keeps then winning them.

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Amdus
Posts: 115

Re: Realm Champions not needed, we need Time Zone Champions

Post#114 » Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:16 am

GamesBond wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:28 pm
Amdus wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:37 pm
GamesBond wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:25 pm

It would be more fruitful if more people apply to participate in the Realm Champions program. You shouldn't really judge the work of these players, who have the roles of RC, if you're not even keen on applying. Whether you're accepted or not is another topic. I believe it's similar to your right of complaining if you haven't voted.
It's difficult to participate in programs where you locked out of it a huge majority due to the requisite of being compliant and have always been "a good boy". I wonder what is the benefit when you recruit people that are supposed to critcise the actual state of many things, but those people you recruit are people that are not defiant and are actually compliant. That could explain the reason behind the lack of changes and how out of scope some of those changes were.
Changes that in some cases got reverted back to the original state or even buffed. Maybe a good first step to have a willfully participant community instead of a whiny one, would be to give equal opportunities and voice to everyone. The best destro players that I know have been muted for petty reasons, almost 99% of my alliance has been muted or banned and we're all people that has played since live and has been around here for 5 years or more. Sorry if I sound brash, but that's really how I see it. How many of us see it, since it has been discussed in multiple discords where all are part of. I don't think this is unknown information at this point, just making it public here for the first time.

This is why the majority agree that the realm champion program is not the best approach when you have forums where everyone can express their oppinions, you need to filter out the pathological whiners but nonetheless there are some gems between the posts.
You want the reasonable answers right? I try to be as transparent as possible, always. Balance feedback where everyone discusses everything is not possible; It's terrible, inefficient and would end up taking ages to do the simplest things. The people who join the RC program are knowledgeable, and nobody is saying that they're the only ones. You're free to apply and to experience it. If you're someone who cannot tolerate different opinions, or if you instantly turn a mature discussion into a tempered toxic one, you will surely not find a spot in that program.

The RC program is here to add the community's input into balance, to help both the team and the community. It's not here to increase the workload, time or stress on devs. This is the closest that we could get to community-shaped balance.

Now if you'd like to keep disrespecting these players who spend their time discussing balance, working on data and arguing for weeks to defend their input, you're free to do so. But just don't call them "good boys", it's really not necessary.

Amdus wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:37 pm The best destro players that I know have been muted for petty reasons, almost 99% of my alliance has been muted or banned and we're all people that has played since live and has been around here for 5 years or more.
Usually when I check the log, the "petty reasons" as you mentioned end up being extreme toxicity, sexism, racism or just the players ignoring several warnings and repeating the same offenses.
I can't apply to the realm champion program because I got banned 3 days followed by a 10 day mute for saying that Joe Biden is a robot. Most warband leaders I know from Destro have been muted atleast once, one of them had the last mute of 45 days. They're not eligible for the spot, despite being the ones that are truly more knowledgeable about the reality of destro.

Most MMO's I know, and back when I was a dev in a wow server, we had a test realm well, to test stuff. We would pick a couple of guilds from each faction to test things out, not saying what you should do, just mentioning an alternative that imo, offers better short term results.

When I go in the main page, I see the birthdays at the bottom. The average age around here must be 30 years old from what I have seen. If calling those that never got banned "good boys" is disrespectful, if saying that Joe Biden is a robot in a general channel gets me banned (Only me though, because everyone was talking about politics and they didn't get banned.) is not a petty reason taking in consideration the age of the average player, well I can't see the point of this conversation. Actually, on a side note, this particular ban that I got kinda makes me wonder why some get away calling us destro CCCP for years while you said that extreme toxicity and racism are not petty reasons, especially when they have done it well, for years. I saw on a previous post that atleast he got a warning, glad to know.

I'm sorry Gamesbond, this isn't personal against you, but I hope this helps you see why the vast majority of destro thinks there's a heavy order bias, we seem to not be equal towards the rules. And OP is the prime example of it. Not that I'm demanding a punishment, he got warned and all of that but I'm sure you get my point, cheers.

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tazdingo
Posts: 1199

Re: Realm Champions not needed, we need Time Zone Champions

Post#115 » Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:30 am

there are many cases throughout the history of ror where prominent order players and guild leaders have been banned for being big dumbs, names and dramas im not dragging out again but it happened

last couple years order have had this big push where they've made alliances and got super organised and seem to keep each other in check. destro remains fragmented and unwilling to work together with just a few hyper elite prems winning all instances. comes with the territory

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DaWolf
Posts: 121

Re: Realm Champions not needed, we need Time Zone Champions

Post#116 » Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:31 am

GamesBond wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:25 pm It would be more fruitful if more people apply to participate in the Realm Champions program. You shouldn't really judge the work of these players, who have the roles of RC, if you're not even keen on applying. Whether you're accepted or not is another topic. I believe it's similar to your right of complaining if you haven't voted.
I have nothing against respecting the work of realms champions, and I even agree.
But the argument that if you don't do it, you can't have an opinion, is not admissible.

I don't have to be a rapist or be raped to have an opinion on :|, do I ?

nocturnalguest
Posts: 490

Re: Realm Champions not needed, we need Time Zone Champions

Post#117 » Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:58 am

DaWolf wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:31 am
GamesBond wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:25 pm It would be more fruitful if more people apply to participate in the Realm Champions program. You shouldn't really judge the work of these players, who have the roles of RC, if you're not even keen on applying. Whether you're accepted or not is another topic. I believe it's similar to your right of complaining if you haven't voted.
I have nothing against respecting the work of realms champions, and I even agree.
But the argument that if you don't do it, you can't have an opinion, is not admissible.

I don't have to :| myself or be raped to have an opinion on :|, do I ?
I dont support current version of RC program either but your point dont make any sense as well.
There is no place for "opinions" for balance discussions. There is only a place for data, enlistment of pros/cons, analysis etc. So i'd agree with Gamesbond on that "Balance feedback where everyone discusses everything is not possible; It's terrible, inefficient and would end up taking ages to do the simplest things." its true and clear like day.
However the other part of "The people who join the RC program are knowledgeable" is questionable in some cases.

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DaWolf
Posts: 121

Re: Realm Champions not needed, we need Time Zone Champions

Post#118 » Fri Jan 28, 2022 11:04 am

I only react to what I have quoted, and I don't think I am wrong. But either...

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knick
Posts: 206

Re: Realm Champions not needed, we need Time Zone Champions

Post#119 » Fri Jan 28, 2022 11:17 am

emiliorv wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 9:36 am
knick wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 1:32 pm
emiliorv wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:06 am


Top6 are order classes....looks like game is finally balanced....

https://www.returnofreckoning.com/forum ... hp?t=42663
dont know how this numbers are calculated but its obvious not the total truth
with fantasy we can have any interpretation to make own point more falid
for example top 10 dd´s - 0 order DD´s but 5 destro (100%) but order has top dd´s?
top 30 are 15 dd´s - 9 destro (or 60%) 6 order
top 45 are 19 dd´s - 11 destro (or 57 %) 8 order
top 60 are 24 dd´s - 14 destro (or 58 %) 10 order

top 10 player - 8 destro (or 80%) 2 order
top 15 player - 11 destro (or 73%) 4 order
top 30 player - 20 destro (or 66%) 10 order
top 45 player - 28 destro (or 62%) 17 order
top 50 - 31 destro (or 62%) player 19 order
top 100 - 56 destro (or 56%) 44 order

>than 1000 points 128 player - 67 destro 61 order
>than 1300 points 83 player - 48 destro 35 order
>than 1500 points 44 player - 27 destro 17 order
>than 1700 points 25 player - 17 destro 8 order

see win rates are nice. But overall order destro comparison by player count shows that destro is represented more often and in higher rankings
You cant be serious trying to use players mmr as any kind of "balance check"....the fact is that you have more chances to win playing order classes, the meta is clear: WL+SL+WP+RP+KOTBS Have the highest winrate.
the amount of games is so small that win rates says nothing about balance. We talk about 1% of server population in ranked games not representing the majority of player. Also we talk about a few 100 games. To measure Win rates we need thousands of games from the majority of players. The statistic gathered from a competitive environment and competitive statistics are not holistic.

https://dotesports.com/league-of-legend ... atter-6271
https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveFor ... eeply_and/

i dont say mmr is the key to balance so is win rate not the final answer. Wl for example best win rate? but not in the top 10? Even only 1 in top rankings? While best performing DD´s are obvious on destro WE and SH represented several times in top rankings
[Kraehenfeld] Knick WL RR85+

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Garamore
Posts: 397

Re: Realm Champions not needed, we need Time Zone Champions

Post#120 » Fri Jan 28, 2022 12:00 pm

Everdin wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 9:40 am Do you really filter out the last weeks? Not sure about the time between 11:00pm and 9:00am asian and euopean timezone, but daytime was horrible for order.
They were screenshots from the times I was in the lakes and not taken when there was a big wipe and people were in the warcamp, just from normal play, so yes I believe in them. I'm also happy to do some videos so theres actual proof but thats probably taking it a bit far for what was some light hearted banter to show how ridiculous the original post was. Destro does seem to do well during the day time but its still pretty close and does get an early boost as there are some strong eastern time zone destro guilds. The daytime stuff has only really occurred as a pug champ has come over from order recently - before that it was all order in the day time too. A bit later the main order wbs come on and without the cross realmers coming over onto destro it would be over 100% AAO on most nights. As posted above last night it was Hand of Blood, Black Horror and 2 xrealmer guilds vs 6wbs plus pugs on order. The pattern seems to be early morning IC siege, a little destro push, some competitive rvr in EU primetime as long as the xrealmers come to destro followed by a facestomp through the zones with 200%+ aao back to IC. Rinse and repeat. Only when Altdorf gets to 5 stars and the cross realmers decide its time to come across and lock it are destro successful in a city push.

I am also 100% fine with this as we barely have to leave a warcamp to find a fight. If order could just stop hiding in a keep or standing altogether when you have 200% aao it would be a lot more fun.
Garamore - Chosen Garamar - Marauder Garachop - Choppa Garamor - Slayer

Warband leader for Hand of Blood

https://www.twitch.tv/therealgaramore

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