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Feedback on LOTD Third Test Run

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Martok
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Feedback on LOTD Third Test Run

Post#1 » Mon Jan 24, 2022 6:07 am

Consider this my official feedback on the test run of January 23rd, 2022. I hope it serves those involved in the development and as always thanks for watching!


Click here to watch on YouTube
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GamesBond
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Re: Feedback on LOTD Third Test Run

Post#2 » Mon Jan 24, 2022 11:11 pm

Hey Karisanna, thanks for the feedback. I'll just comment on the first issues you've mentioned, which are basic and shouldn't have happened:

- The 5 minutes reservation was sent too early. A bug that we've fixed. It wasn't really intentional as it lacks the logic as you mentioned.

- The guy jumping purposely to disrupt the queue was warned and informed that he'd be removed from any future tests if he kept on doing it. Sometimes people mistakenly block the NPC but this player was clearly jumping on his mount to annoy the other players.

- The number of Expedition Quartermasters has been increased already. I will personally ask the devs to double check the number of NPCs on the live server before the next test. This issue should have been fixed right after the second test.


We're still listening to a lot of feedback from different sources, so it'll be a matter of segregating the different POVs.

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Martok
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Re: Feedback on LOTD Third Test Run

Post#3 » Mon Jan 24, 2022 11:17 pm

GamesBond wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 11:11 pmHey Karisanna, thanks for the feedback.

Thank-you for the response, GamesBond, I do appreciate it.
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Rydiak
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Re: Feedback on LOTD Third Test Run

Post#4 » Mon Jan 24, 2022 11:30 pm

I had a lot of fun during this test (missed the 1st one). I like how back-capping to interrupt supply lines is a thing; it helps punish massive warband blobs because they are easy to track and avoid, and they are at less places at once. Silver scarabs will eventually allow a side to purchase NPC support, right?
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Re: Feedback on LOTD Third Test Run

Post#5 » Tue Jan 25, 2022 1:07 am

@gamesbond I'd like to thank you and the others for addressing the queuing and player issues as quick as you did. However I'm afraid I can't comment on the actual LOTD experience as I can't play for enough hours to gather enough resources to be far enough up the queue to get selected. My friend though, he had over 180 resources and fought the horde to get queued. He started at 24th in the queue, then had to requeue and by the time all was said and done he had over 80 people in front of him by the time it opened.
I have no idea what plans the Devs have for final implementation of LOTD in the game, but I have fears that it's going to be something that only the most ardent players who can put in hours of gameplay in a day will be able to partake in. I just hope that if that's the case, you won't release any LOTD only end-game gear that will further the gap between low level players and RR80s.

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Emissary
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Re: Feedback on LOTD Third Test Run

Post#6 » Tue Jan 25, 2022 1:23 am

I was shocked that this is the third test and the first one we learned that there needed to be more NPC's, took them out the day before the second test and added them back in that day again. Then this being the third test they took the NPCs out again right before the test. Plus their has to be more logic than people humping a zero gravity NPC. We can't make him bigger or up in the air? That has been suggested on now all three tests.

As far as when we got it finally after the Dwarf debacle of us getting kicked out over and over again until we flew from Altdorf. It was good, i was confused over the back capping as I must have not read you didn't have to follow any order of capping anymore, but that was my bad. We did find with strategic planning you can get an entire wb across the river with some work.
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Martok
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Re: Feedback on LOTD Third Test Run

Post#7 » Tue Jan 25, 2022 5:24 am

Emissary wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 1:23 amWe did find with strategic planning you can get an entire wb across the river with some work.

Which is good and fair, in my opinion. Whereas I was glad to see the damage received for simply being in the river was increased, I applaud the "strategic" aspect of finding another way.
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zulnam
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Re: Feedback on LOTD Third Test Run

Post#8 » Tue Jan 25, 2022 10:36 am

Guess this is a good place as any to give feedback:

TLDR:
Spoiler:
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QUEUE

- the queue system was a bit wonky, as anyone can tell. I liked the fact that it specified your position in the queue a lot, but I wonder if this might cause more bugs atm; before i got into LotD i went from position 5 to 29, then i got reservation pop at 22.

- not sure yet about the expedition resources, especially since they seem so arbitrary to get. I've played multiple nights the week before LotD opened up, but didn't get a single one. Somehow still managed to get in. But then you hear stories of people who had 160 expedition resources.

- due to how buggy it is now, i also don't think it's wise to have the expedition resources get removed from the player's inventory now, with the issues to queue and teleport regarding the zone. I had group mates with resources that got taken the moment they queued, but no indication if they still mattered when they queued again for the 5th/6th time due to the bugs. Perhaps it might be safer to remove them once the player is physically located in LotD, for now at least.

OBJECTIVES

- really like the objective based approach of the map. Personally I would prefer if kills gave very little or no victory points and everything was focused around the objectives; the reason behind this is that it would strongly discourage zerging for kills. Right now kills give RP, currencies and objective points. There is a big incentive to go where a big battle is and fight in it. And I believe LotD has very strong potential to break the general zerg we have in the lakes and be more smallscale oriented;

- i know there are sub-objectives throughout the maps. Chests and boons that give the player an advantage; but it's very difficult right now to say what does what and is useful for what. The UI at the top is a bit confusing; I understand this is probably a temporary issue, and that once people play enough they will know the ins and outs, but i strongly recommend doing some youtube How-To videos on the LotD specific features (i know the team really likes wikis; but when you are trying to spread information would you not choose the most popular platform?)

- the idea of hitting the enemy backline for objectives and slowing down their progress is great and really incentivises going all Commando; it would be very fun if smaller teams would also have a way to cross the river without getting killed by crocs. A team buff that would act as a "boat" and give the party the option to cross unhurt would probably make incursions even more common and would give a reason for defending parties to patrol the river. As is, while some groups can make it behind the west pass, i imagine it will become meta to guard and fight there mostly at all times very soon, to stop enemies from capping your backline

MAP

- the far-west crossing where the ruined city is is f*cking awesome! multiple funnels, great LoS opportunities and the close spawn of Tomb Kings warbands makes it a pleasure to fight in. I especially liked it when, during fights there, TK warbands spawned out of the blue, really throwing a spanner into the generally straightforward funnel strategy. It's great!

- saw a few cheeky dwarfs getting on hard-to-reach rooftops. Due to how the collision works, it's almost impossible to get to them. I like the idea of rooftop fighting, but as it is now it's a bit cheesy, edging on the usage of game mechanics to stop players from getting to your ranged. Not sure how this would be solved; perhaps a ramp? But i doubt that's easy to do.

TOMB KINGS

- TKs are awesome. I love the PvEvP feature and think it really makes the game feel like a Massive Open World.

- Patrols are fun imo, but I do question on how strong they should be; Against a 24-man warband (even a pug one) they pose very little threat due to how generic PvE mechanics work (tank aggro, mobs hit tank, healer heal, call it a day). But are they meant to be a threat? As a 6-man I imagine you will be much ore inclined to avoid them, but if they take away a BO you can just follow them and recap. Would be perhaps more interesting if patrols would stop at BOs and hold them, making it necessary for a stronger force to go back and backcap.

- I would like to see stronger TK groups (perhaps named Warband?). How to make mob encounters more exciting though? I would have two suggestions:
* make it so that mobs reset aggro often (5/10s cooldown)
* give a few mobs special heavy attacks with random timers that, basically, do morale drops. 1200 aoe unmitigated. This makes them deadly for everyone nearby, whether they are fighting the TK or not.

- I really liked the giant skeleton mobs that spawned at random locations, I think they could be very good for a special unit.

- I think, besides the objectives, TK might offer the biggest solution to solving the zergy habbits of players. But it might require a lot of work. For example: if players are zerging in a spot, that could be set as the next destination for two Patrol spawns. But the problem is this is a dynamic waypoint setter for the mobs, not easy to do (maybe use the functions that are used for map battle icons, but again careful consideration has to be used so as to not add unnecessary checks for all battle icons even in normal rvr lakes). And after all that trouble, if they spawn from the current spawn points, you run the risk of having them come too late to the party (no TK mounts, /sad)

- perhaps a solution to this:
Nehekhara Skirmishers
Hidden beneath the desert sands, the Nehekhara warriors await to be beckoned by their king and strike when their enemies are most distracted.

This TK unit would only spawn very close to a large battle, and would have an extended aggro range (so as to not miss the baddies). Again AoE damage and aggro reset, to make it a powerful thorn in any zerg's rear.

Whatever happens, I really hope the TKs get fleshed (HAH) out more, as they are very fun to have on the battlefield. By comparison, the regular RvR lakes now feel static and empty. Perhaps in time we can see more PvEvP added to those as well. One can only hope.

GENERAL NOTES

- the 3rd lotd took roughly 1 hour to finish. I understood that this was already changed based on feedback. Personally I think it could easily last 2 hours for a zone that opens once every X days, but this can be tweaked at any time in the future i guess, and it also depends greatly on how often we will get lotd when it releases (one hour every week sounds a bit ehh).

- the map is awesome to explore, but due to the relative short battle time, it's almost impossible to do so. I hope that, in the future, the faction that gets it unlocked also gets to go there. The issue with this though is that it would mean it's a PvE zone, and the incentive should be strong enough for players to choose it over RvR lakes/forts, but weak enough so as to not make said lakes/forts redundant. Hard balancing act. Perhaps have it open for only 24 hours after victory, for players to make PQs/things

- with new zones comes new gear and that's great; a lot of players here are old timers that use sov boots to drink their tea out of, but i really think we should not be ignoring potential new players. I actually meet quite a few "newish" people in my adventures, who have no idea what is what and how to get gear. Once they get an idea, the basic grind to get from Anni to Invader puts many off, especially since it's not particularly fun, due to the power imbalance. The point I am trying to make here is that I hope lotD will also provide a good catch-up mechanic for new players. These days, even vanquisher is a kind of weak. A player needs invader to be considered competitive. Invader is not that easy to get, imo (especially with the weapons).
Perhaps the solution is not in LotD at all, but RvR lake/reward tweaking, but that's a conversation for another thread.

Overall a very solid and fun addition to the game that needs just a bit more tweaking. I'd rate it an 8/10 in it's current state.
Last edited by zulnam on Tue Jan 25, 2022 3:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Feedback on LOTD Third Test Run

Post#9 » Tue Jan 25, 2022 11:42 am

My main gripe with the LotD's current system is that its goal is unclear.

We have a somewhat complicated web of objectives, but how are players envisioned to interact with these objectives?

At first glance it seems that warbands need to communicate more amongst each other in order to be successful: to what degree do the tests indicate success so far?

Or maybe the goal is entirely different, but regardless it would help to state those goals clearly so there's a better chance of the feedback being useful.
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GamesBond
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Re: Feedback on LOTD Third Test Run

Post#10 » Tue Jan 25, 2022 7:12 pm

Topdude wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 1:07 am @gamesbond I'd like to thank you and the others for addressing the queuing and player issues as quick as you did. However I'm afraid I can't comment on the actual LOTD experience as I can't play for enough hours to gather enough resources to be far enough up the queue to get selected. My friend though, he had over 180 resources and fought the horde to get queued. He started at 24th in the queue, then had to requeue and by the time all was said and done he had over 80 people in front of him by the time it opened.
I have no idea what plans the Devs have for final implementation of LOTD in the game, but I have fears that it's going to be something that only the most ardent players who can put in hours of gameplay in a day will be able to partake in. I just hope that if that's the case, you won't release any LOTD only end-game gear that will further the gap between low level players and RR80s.
Yes the bug was noticed only after 5 minutes of the initial queue time, so we had 10 minutes to really do anything - impossible to fix the bug. I was summoning whoever mentioned that they had resources and lost their queue position and their rightful spot in LotD. I was also taking into consideration the zone's population, so that I don't summon an extensive amount of players and make the battlefield imbalanced.

Regarding the expedition resources, it will require you to surely play more often in order to reserve a spot. But this doesn't mean that you need to become a 24/7 player, keep in mind that the majority of the community is on average older than other games and most people also have work. It's not gonna be a difference of 10+ hours per day. Also, the zone holds enough players to cover most level 40s - we may look into increasing the population based on what you mentioned.. We don't want to keep a lot of people outside and we also don't want to force players to stay logged in, but there's a minimum of time investment that you will need to do (playing as much as you do now may be more than enough).
zulnam wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 10:36 am QUEUE

1- the queue system was a bit wonky, as anyone can tell. I liked the fact that it specified your position in the queue a lot, but I wonder if this might cause more bugs atm; before i got into LotD i went from position 5 to 29, then i got reservation pop at 22.

2- not sure yet about the expedition resources, especially since they seem so arbitrary to get. I've played multiple nights the week before LotD opened up, but didn't get a single one. Somehow still managed to get in. But then you hear stories of people who had 160 expedition resources.

3- due to how buggy it is now, i also don't think it's wise to have the expedition resources get removed from the player's inventory now, with the issues to queue and teleport regarding the zone. I had group mates with resources that got taken the moment they queued, but no indication if they still mattered when they queued again for the 5th/6th time due to the bugs. Perhaps it might be safer to remove them once the player is physically located in LotD, for now at least.
I will comment now only the queue, since the rest of your feedback is well appreciated and will be forwarded for internal review.

1- The queue system was working better last time. The issue with the last queue in Test #3 is that it handed out reservations way too early and we didn't expect it. Knowing about the issue and how it prevented players from getting their rightful position in the queue, we started summoning players inside based on request and total population for both factions in LotD, as I mentioned above.

2- Based on feedback we could increase the chances of getting the resources, but we really need to study with how many resources are queuing with. It's a double edged sword: What may increase resources for you may double the resources for someone who just had a lucky week.

3- This was also due to the bug. When reservations are handed-out properly, none of these issues will occur again.

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