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The problem with stealth classes

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Panzer80
Posts: 63

The problem with stealth classes

Post#1 » Sun May 01, 2022 10:38 pm

Been playing game for 2 years now, have a WH (not endgame yet), fought WE/WH many times. The problem with these classes is they are over done atm. Stealth classes should exist on a knife edge. Like the ninja, get in, time it right, get out. Problem is that much of the risk is taken away from these classes by abilities/tactics that make up for the inherent fragility of the class with absorbs, one button 100% parry, double stealth, hop back, hop ins, etc, which just turn these classes into tanks in small game situations. Again the point should be, time it right, un-stealth, kill, get out. Screw up and you loose. Not hang around unfearful of the 8-10 enemies about, because you can just absorb/parry/jump/stealth away again, which is what we see.

One suggestion I can think of is changing stealth to become much less effective when closer to more enemies, or change the effectiveness of the lesser stealth. Another being to change tank creep abilities and tactics like absorbs, and 100% parry to passive damage instead of passive defenses.

You can't make the argument that stealth classes exist on a knife edge atm, it's just not true, as ALL classes exist on a knife edge to a solid degree if they're roaming around solo in the lakes. That's just how it is. We already see stealth classes huddling around 6-12 mans in the lakes as is, changes of the type I'm suggesting would just make the solo roaming riskier. Stealth classes already get the high rr rewards.
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Shogun4138
Posts: 103

Re: The problem with stealth classes

Post#2 » Mon May 02, 2022 2:49 am

We should also have tanks move slow and exhaust their AP faster due to armor and weapons.

All get away aoptions for healers should be taken away also. Right now they can get away from and heal through a 6 man chasing them. Or get rid of there dps

Dps classes with armor debuff should be remover too...


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Sinisterror
Posts: 530

Re: The problem with stealth classes

Post#3 » Mon May 02, 2022 3:26 am

Panzer80 wrote:
Sun May 01, 2022 10:38 pm
Been playing game for 2 years now, have a WH (not endgame yet), fought WE/WH many times. The problem with these classes is they are over done atm. Stealth classes should exist on a knife edge. Like the ninja, get in, time it right, get out. Problem is that much of the risk is taken away from these classes by abilities/tactics that make up for the inherent fragility of the class with absorbs, one button 100% parry, double stealth, hop back, hop ins, etc, which just turn these classes into tanks in small game situations. Again the point should be, time it right, un-stealth, kill, get out. Screw up and you loose. Not hang around unfearful of the 8-10 enemies about, because you can just absorb/parry/jump/stealth away again, which is what we see.

One suggestion I can think of is changing stealth to become much less effective when closer to more enemies, or change the effectiveness of the lesser stealth. Another being to change tank creep abilities and tactics like absorbs, and 100% parry to passive damage instead of passive defenses.

You can't make the argument that stealth classes exist on a knife edge atm, it's just not true, as ALL classes exist on a knife edge to a solid degree if they're roaming around solo in the lakes. That's just how it is. We already see stealth classes huddling around 6-12 mans in the lakes as is, changes of the type I'm suggesting would just make the solo roaming riskier. Stealth classes already get the high rr rewards.
Problem with WH/WE is BB/BE tactics and it should be reduced to 33% instead of 50% and make it 4 seconds instead of 3. Also insta stealth/speed boost should be changed to have 1 sec cast time so its not instant, makes it much less effective while still being very effective. And ofc fix the bugs on undefendable throws even thru morales and some skills not being interruptable. Self heal tactics back to 100% not 150%. These changes makes them a bit less annoying/powerful but still powerful enough.
"To clarify, me asking to developers to go test their own changes is not sign of toxicity or anger, but a sign of hope that the people punching in the numbers remain aware of potential consequences and test their own changes"-Teefz

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Nabaro
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Re: The problem with stealth classes

Post#4 » Mon May 02, 2022 6:01 am

Sinisterror wrote:
Mon May 02, 2022 3:26 am
Problem with WH/WE is BB/BE tactics and it should be reduced to 33% instead of 50% and make it 4 seconds instead of 3.
This will kill all dps builds based on this tactic, it's the same as removing it from the game completely.
Sinisterror wrote:
Mon May 02, 2022 3:26 am
Also insta stealth/speed boost should be changed to have 1 sec cast time so its not instant, makes it much less effective while still being very effective.
The whole point of stealth classes in this game is the circle "open-damage-run". you suggesting to nerf the "run" stage, then increase the damage?
Sinisterror wrote:
Mon May 02, 2022 3:26 am
And ofc fix the bugs on undefendable throws even thru morales and some skills not being interruptable. Self heal tactics back to 100% not 150%.
Sure
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Panzer80
Posts: 63

Re: The problem with stealth classes

Post#5 » Mon May 02, 2022 6:31 am

Shogun4138 wrote:
Mon May 02, 2022 2:49 am
We should also have tanks move slow and exhaust their AP faster due to armor and weapons.

All get away aoptions for healers should be taken away also. Right now they can get away from and heal through a 6 man chasing them. Or get rid of there dps

Dps classes with armor debuff should be remover too...


Jk..
I agree heavy armor should make you slower. Although you may be kidding all that stuff you mention doesn't creep out of the archetype for the class.
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Panzer80
Posts: 63

Re: The problem with stealth classes

Post#6 » Mon May 02, 2022 6:33 am

Sinisterror wrote:
Mon May 02, 2022 3:26 am
Panzer80 wrote:
Sun May 01, 2022 10:38 pm
Been playing game for 2 years now, have a WH (not endgame yet), fought WE/WH many times. The problem with these classes is they are over done atm. Stealth classes should exist on a knife edge. Like the ninja, get in, time it right, get out. Problem is that much of the risk is taken away from these classes by abilities/tactics that make up for the inherent fragility of the class with absorbs, one button 100% parry, double stealth, hop back, hop ins, etc, which just turn these classes into tanks in small game situations. Again the point should be, time it right, un-stealth, kill, get out. Screw up and you loose. Not hang around unfearful of the 8-10 enemies about, because you can just absorb/parry/jump/stealth away again, which is what we see.

One suggestion I can think of is changing stealth to become much less effective when closer to more enemies, or change the effectiveness of the lesser stealth. Another being to change tank creep abilities and tactics like absorbs, and 100% parry to passive damage instead of passive defenses.

You can't make the argument that stealth classes exist on a knife edge atm, it's just not true, as ALL classes exist on a knife edge to a solid degree if they're roaming around solo in the lakes. That's just how it is. We already see stealth classes huddling around 6-12 mans in the lakes as is, changes of the type I'm suggesting would just make the solo roaming riskier. Stealth classes already get the high rr rewards.
Problem with WH/WE is BB/BE tactics and it should be reduced to 33% instead of 50% and make it 4 seconds instead of 3. Also insta stealth/speed boost should be changed to have 1 sec cast time so its not instant, makes it much less effective while still being very effective. And ofc fix the bugs on undefendable throws even thru morales and some skills not being interruptable. Self heal tactics back to 100% not 150%. These changes makes them a bit less annoying/powerful but still powerful enough.
Agree
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BO 80+, Various Alts

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Panzer80
Posts: 63

Re: The problem with stealth classes

Post#7 » Mon May 02, 2022 6:39 am

Sinisterror wrote:
Mon May 02, 2022 3:26 am
Also insta stealth/speed boost should be changed to have 1 sec cast time so its not instant, makes it much less effective while still being very effective.
The whole point of stealth classes in this game is the circle "open-damage-run". you suggesting to nerf the "run" stage, then increase the damage?

I think it would just require more caution about your surroundings, he's not suggesting nerfing the "open-damage-run" for example. As i've described, the situation currently is WE and WH simple not having much to worry about when 10-12 people are around, they just hang around chilli'n relying on double stealth instant cast.
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Sinisterror
Posts: 530

Re: The problem with stealth classes

Post#8 » Mon May 02, 2022 6:59 am

Nabaro wrote:
Mon May 02, 2022 6:01 am
Sinisterror wrote:
Mon May 02, 2022 3:26 am
Problem with WH/WE is BB/BE tactics and it should be reduced to 33% instead of 50% and make it 4 seconds instead of 3.
This will kill all dps builds based on this tactic, it's the same as removing it from the game completely.
Sinisterror wrote:
Mon May 02, 2022 3:26 am
Also insta stealth/speed boost should be changed to have 1 sec cast time so its not instant, makes it much less effective while still being very effective.
The whole point of stealth classes in this game is the circle "open-damage-run". you suggesting to nerf the "run" stage, then increase the damage?
Sinisterror wrote:
Mon May 02, 2022 3:26 am
And ofc fix the bugs on undefendable throws even thru morales and some skills not being interruptable. Self heal tactics back to 100% not 150%.
Sure
Im suggesting making instant vanish not being instant, just adding 1 sec cast time to it and it still will be insanely good skill. And taking 17% Armour Pene away and making buff last 4 seconds instead of 3 will definetely not kill any builds with this tactic. It still will stack with your own armour penetration which is over 30 % on my WE without even trying. Max armour penetration you can have is 75 % so this is very reasonable change imo.
"To clarify, me asking to developers to go test their own changes is not sign of toxicity or anger, but a sign of hope that the people punching in the numbers remain aware of potential consequences and test their own changes"-Teefz

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Grock
Posts: 915

Re: The problem with stealth classes

Post#9 » Mon May 02, 2022 7:01 am

The main feature of this game when compared to something like WoW is how much you can customize your character via stat investment, tactics and gear.
If you want to "live on the edge" as a Stealth class you are welcome to use full damage ganking build which has been a go-to way to play the class solo for many years.

The reason these days so many people choose fighter/survival build with self-healing and good defence is because its more versatile and works in wider range of situtaions. It allows you to fight against larger selection of targets - some which normally wouldn't die to a simple stealth burst or would simply outlast you, and also gives you a better chance in 1vX situations. This is also probably a reaction to overall decline of solo roaming and lack of respect for 1v1 and soloing from pick up groups and warbands.

Instant stealth is perfect as is, touch it and you ruin it.
The only thing to tweak is duration of speed bonus, but considering its 60s CD shared with 2 other special CDs its fine as is.
The suggestion of addin 1s cast time is just so bizarre i dont even know how to comment it :)

Nabaro wrote:
Mon May 02, 2022 6:01 am
Sinisterror wrote:
Mon May 02, 2022 3:26 am
Problem with WH/WE is BB/BE tactics and it should be reduced to 33% instead of 50% and make it 4 seconds instead of 3.
This will kill all dps builds based on this tactic, it's the same as removing it from the game completely.
Dont forget that it gives Armorpen as a stat, so its supposed to add up with your natural armorpen from WS and even if it was 33% you'd only need ~380 WS to get total of 50% armorpen
A slight nerf wouldn't hurt much, or alternatively turn it into "armor ignore" type effect that does not stack with armorpen in additive way.
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wildwindblows
Posts: 339

Re: The problem with stealth classes

Post#10 » Mon May 02, 2022 7:37 am

Panzer80 wrote:
Sun May 01, 2022 10:38 pm
Been playing game for 2 years now, have a WH (not endgame yet), fought WE/WH many times. The problem with these classes is they are over done atm. Stealth classes should exist on a knife edge. Like the ninja, get in, time it right, get out. Problem is that much of the risk is taken away from these classes by abilities/tactics that make up for the inherent fragility of the class with absorbs, one button 100% parry, double stealth, hop back, hop ins, etc, which just turn these classes into tanks in small game situations. Again the point should be, time it right, un-stealth, kill, get out. Screw up and you loose. Not hang around unfearful of the 8-10 enemies about, because you can just absorb/parry/jump/stealth away again, which is what we see.

One suggestion I can think of is changing stealth to become much less effective when closer to more enemies, or change the effectiveness of the lesser stealth. Another being to change tank creep abilities and tactics like absorbs, and 100% parry to passive damage instead of passive defenses.

You can't make the argument that stealth classes exist on a knife edge atm, it's just not true, as ALL classes exist on a knife edge to a solid degree if they're roaming around solo in the lakes. That's just how it is. We already see stealth classes huddling around 6-12 mans in the lakes as is, changes of the type I'm suggesting would just make the solo roaming riskier. Stealth classes already get the high rr rewards.
WH have 12sec 100% parry (morale 1+ skill), one skill provides aoe morale drain+kd, x2 stealth (one of them is insta), kd, kb. aoe armor debuff...It is best solo class atm and opponent has no chance to win against. People are saying that wh only playable solo/small scale because proper wb build does not exist. IMO, currently wh is easy win and they are ruining the game. There are also other solo hardcore players whom player other classes. This is unfair.

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