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The problem with stealth classes

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tazdingo
Posts: 1199

Re: The problem with stealth classes

Post#11 » Mon May 02, 2022 7:53 am

the only thing that bothers me is just how ineffective aoe is when you -know- that there's a stealther there. wh/we used to be useless, so it's fine that they work as assassins now, there should just be some sort of counterplay to the insta stealth

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warlover
Posts: 382

Re: The problem with stealth classes

Post#12 » Mon May 02, 2022 8:28 am

Panzer80 wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 10:38 pm Been playing game for 2 years now, have a WH (not endgame yet), fought WE/WH many times. The problem with these classes is they are over done atm. Stealth classes should exist on a knife edge. Like the ninja, get in, time it right, get out. Problem is that much of the risk is taken away from these classes by abilities/tactics that make up for the inherent fragility of the class with absorbs, one button 100% parry, double stealth, hop back, hop ins, etc, which just turn these classes into tanks in small game situations. Again the point should be, time it right, un-stealth, kill, get out. Screw up and you loose. Not hang around unfearful of the 8-10 enemies about, because you can just absorb/parry/jump/stealth away again, which is what we see.

One suggestion I can think of is changing stealth to become much less effective when closer to more enemies, or change the effectiveness of the lesser stealth. Another being to change tank creep abilities and tactics like absorbs, and 100% parry to passive damage instead of passive defenses.

You can't make the argument that stealth classes exist on a knife edge atm, it's just not true, as ALL classes exist on a knife edge to a solid degree if they're roaming around solo in the lakes. That's just how it is. We already see stealth classes huddling around 6-12 mans in the lakes as is, changes of the type I'm suggesting would just make the solo roaming riskier. Stealth classes already get the high rr rewards.
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Cyrinael
Posts: 34

Re: The problem with stealth classes

Post#13 » Mon May 02, 2022 8:50 am

Panzer80 wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 10:38 pm Stealth classes should exist on a knife edge.
Panzer80 wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 10:38 pm You can't make the argument that stealth classes exist on a knife edge atm, it's just not true
Ok bro.

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Morradin
Posts: 218

Re: The problem with stealth classes

Post#14 » Mon May 02, 2022 10:16 am

Basically you are suggesting that the WE/WH go back to the way they were on live / AoR. That is fine, I had fun playing both in AoR. Except the game as a whole has changed so much it is a complete different game than what we had live.

In the (good) old days, damage/dps was a lot higher for all classes than what we have in RoR. Also defenses were not as OP. And we did not have readily available life regen pocket items for everyone. Life regen as a whole was less on live than now. I used to crank out 2500+ crits on a 2h chosen back on live. Now even dps tanks have the same def abilities (almost) as an SnB tank.

In short, if you cut out the abilities on the WE/WH you mention, then defensive capabilities across the entire range of archetypes will have to be reduced, AND we can (PLEASE) remove the excessive life regen - armor - health that all classes enjoy on RoR.

Elemint
Posts: 258

Re: The problem with stealth classes

Post#15 » Mon May 02, 2022 11:11 am

Sinisterror wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 6:59 am Max armour penetration you can have is 75 %
No ))
Grock wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 7:01 am Dont forget that it gives Armorpen as a stat, so its supposed to add up with your natural armorpen from WS and even if it was 33% you'd only need ~380 WS to get total of 50% armorpen
238

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Grock
Posts: 918

Re: The problem with stealth classes

Post#16 » Mon May 02, 2022 11:41 am

Morradin wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 10:16 amAND we can (PLEASE) remove the excessive life regen - armor - health that all classes enjoy on RoR.
Theres no excessive life regen really, even with pocket item and new chestpiece its barely anything on its own, like 300 hp/4 which is like 75 hp per second, while DPS output would be in 500-1000s.

The real problem that makes regen appear OP is the defence stacking, which has gotten a bit out of control with power creep, Sovereign gear level and certain class changes of the past few years.
Without going into details and math (which im bad at explaining) the way things like armor/toughness/avoidance stacks makes it more effective per each point the more you stack it, which allows certain tanks/builds to stack ridiculously high defences and benefit from regen way more than anyone should.

Elemint wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 11:11 am
Grock wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 7:01 am Dont forget that it gives Armorpen as a stat, so its supposed to add up with your natural armorpen from WS and even if it was 33% you'd only need ~380 WS to get total of 50% armorpen
238
Oops! :? In my defence - i haven't slept today :)
Orkni 85+ (in-game Grock is not me...)
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knick
Posts: 206

Re: The problem with stealth classes

Post#17 » Mon May 02, 2022 1:01 pm

Grock wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 11:41 am
Morradin wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 10:16 amAND we can (PLEASE) remove the excessive life regen - armor - health that all classes enjoy on RoR.
Theres no excessive life regen really, even with pocket item and new chestpiece its barely anything on its own, like 300 hp/4 which is like 75 hp per second, while DPS output would be in 500-1000s.

The real problem that makes regen appear OP is the defence stacking, which has gotten a bit out of control with power creep, Sovereign gear level and certain class changes of the past few years.
Without going into details and math (which im bad at explaining) the way things like armor/toughness/avoidance stacks makes it more effective per each point the more you stack it, which allows certain tanks/builds to stack ridiculously high defences and benefit from regen way more than anyone should.
4x 40hp Fleshrender = 160hp
1x 184hp Grimshimmer Chest
1x 80hp pocket item
= 424 hp
+tactics/abilitys/potion
can you bring near or beyond 600hp every 4 sec

some classes benefit more from a all defensive build then others but its obvious to say that there are builds out there with the only purpose to survive as long as possible and kill the opponent through boredom. SM/Chosen and WH/WE are very receptive for this kind of builds with laughably good results
[Kraehenfeld] Knick WL RR85+

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sundey
Posts: 22

Re: The problem with stealth classes

Post#18 » Mon May 02, 2022 1:25 pm

WHs/WEs had one of their original core drawbacks, that is, reduced/lack of mobility, pretty much removed by giving them insta stealth and charge. Not necessarily a bad thing but should be acknowledged. Bugs need to be fixed, and stopping melee 'Throw axe/dagger' etc from proccing things should be re-instated though imo - why that change was reverted I don't know; again it just nullifies an intended inherent weakness (of mdps generally, but particularly WEs in this case).

Grock wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 11:41 am []
Without going into details and math (which im bad at explaining) the way things like armor/toughness/avoidance stacks makes it more effective per each point the more you stack it, which allows certain tanks/builds to stack ridiculously high defences and benefit from regen way more than anyone should.
It's funny as I'd actually say the opposite - turtle tank potential on RoR is currently pretty crap compared to live. I might agree when it comes to other classes/archetypes, but def tanks are a lot less valuable here, I'm not completely sure why but probably at least in part because of buffs/changes to 2h/snb abilities and specs.

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tazdingo
Posts: 1199

Re: The problem with stealth classes

Post#19 » Mon May 02, 2022 2:37 pm

turtle tanks are not even remotely a thing on ror. on live knights could tank entire wbs. here the most theorycrafted regen hardcap tough tanks can survive maybe 2 proper dps for a little while. the complaining about regen is just absurd

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fangour77
Posts: 8

Re: The problem with stealth classes

Post#20 » Mon May 02, 2022 2:50 pm

dmg not breaking stealth needs a fix asap

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