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[Suggestion] Replace AAO and WTA Buff/Bane

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illutian
Posts: 30

Re: [Suggestion] Replace AAO and WTA Buff/Bane

Post#11 » Sat Jul 23, 2022 11:24 am

Detangler wrote: Sat Jul 23, 2022 4:20 am AAO should ramp up quicker after like 40% AAO. I'd happily die to larger numbers if i'm getting 8x renown (4x for me while they are at half or less) for each kill. And please remove the realm switch timer if you're going from overpopulated to underdog realm. Once server population hits 60/40, make a realm wide message stating switching is free and then another message warning that free switching is ending in 1 minute.

A far easier solution that doesn't crush small scale fights/solo roaming like this boon/bane stat boosting will inevitably do. You'd just push more and more people away from an already dwindling population.
You're going on the assumption you'll get a decent amount of 'kill based' Renown. Compared to if you went into the Weekly Scenario.

As for 'pushing more and more away'. I'm already seeing that. I've been playing about a month-ish now. When I first stepped into T4, Order was doing pretty good it was a true "coin toss" on the outcome. Now, weeks later, Order is guaranteed to lose if Destro gets a ram to the door. And there is definitely fewer Order in the active RVR Lakes as a result.

Seeing as how the overall population is still pretty stable. I must conclude that either: Order is doing less RVR, Order players have switch over to Destro, or (most likely) a combination of both.

Switch sides? Why would I want to switch to the side I've spent the better part of a week trouncing? More Renown? See the first sentence.
You have to learn the rules of the game. Then play better than anyone else.

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Tanski
Posts: 230

Re: [Suggestion] Replace AAO and WTA Buff/Bane

Post#12 » Sat Jul 23, 2022 12:35 pm

I don’t like the idea of touching stats to balance numbers.

Just make AAO and Apathy logarithmic. Keep same base
numbers but as the numbers go up make it more and more rewarding/discouraging.
75+ BG
80 Choppa/slyer
80 wl
70 + sm
70 bw/sorc
80 wh, we
60 sham/am

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Detangler
Posts: 988

Re: [Suggestion] Replace AAO and WTA Buff/Bane

Post#13 » Sat Jul 23, 2022 1:24 pm

illutian wrote: Sat Jul 23, 2022 11:24 am
Detangler wrote: Sat Jul 23, 2022 4:20 am AAO should ramp up quicker after like 40% AAO. I'd happily die to larger numbers if i'm getting 8x renown (4x for me while they are at half or less) for each kill. And please remove the realm switch timer if you're going from overpopulated to underdog realm. Once server population hits 60/40, make a realm wide message stating switching is free and then another message warning that free switching is ending in 1 minute.

A far easier solution that doesn't crush small scale fights/solo roaming like this boon/bane stat boosting will inevitably do. You'd just push more and more people away from an already dwindling population.
You're going on the assumption you'll get a decent amount of 'kill based' Renown. Compared to if you went into the Weekly Scenario.

As for 'pushing more and more away'. I'm already seeing that. I've been playing about a month-ish now. When I first stepped into T4, Order was doing pretty good it was a true "coin toss" on the outcome. Now, weeks later, Order is guaranteed to lose if Destro gets a ram to the door. And there is definitely fewer Order in the active RVR Lakes as a result.

Seeing as how the overall population is still pretty stable. I must conclude that either: Order is doing less RVR, Order players have switch over to Destro, or (most likely) a combination of both.

Switch sides? Why would I want to switch to the side I've spent the better part of a week trouncing? More Renown? See the first sentence.
When you've been playing for years on this server, you'll notice that population swings back and forth between order and destro dominance about every 6 months or so. having a couple competent leaders in charge of pug WBs also helps keep numbers up on your side, too. Give it time, it'll swing back again.
Detangler and alts - 84 Chosen, other 40s - DoK, Zealot, SH, WE, BG, BO
Destro - Mostly Harmless
Tangler and alts - 8X IB, other 40s - RP, SM
Order - Most dishonorable

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illutian
Posts: 30

Re: [Suggestion] Replace AAO and WTA Buff/Bane

Post#14 » Sat Jul 23, 2022 1:31 pm

Tanski wrote: Sat Jul 23, 2022 12:35 pm I don’t like the idea of touching stats to balance numbers.

Just make AAO and Apathy logarithmic. Keep same base
numbers but as the numbers go up make it more and more rewarding/discouraging.
I have never played a game with PVP, that used PVE as 'the carrot', and was successful at coaxing players to PVP at a numerical disadvantage. Not once.
You have to learn the rules of the game. Then play better than anyone else.

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illutian
Posts: 30

Re: [Suggestion] Replace AAO and WTA Buff/Bane

Post#15 » Sat Jul 23, 2022 1:35 pm

Detangler wrote: Sat Jul 23, 2022 1:24 pm When you've been playing for years on this server, you'll notice that population swings back and forth between order and destro dominance about every 6 months or so. having a couple competent leaders in charge of pug WBs also helps keep numbers up on your side, too. Give it time, it'll swing back again.
Yes, as is for most PVP MMOs. However, "wait a bit" is a terrible way to handle balance.
You have to learn the rules of the game. Then play better than anyone else.

Farrul
Posts: 290

Re: [Suggestion] Replace AAO and WTA Buff/Bane

Post#16 » Sat Jul 23, 2022 1:44 pm

illutian wrote: Sat Jul 23, 2022 11:24 amAs for 'pushing more and more away'. I'm already seeing that. I've been playing about a month-ish now. When I first stepped into T4, Order was doing pretty good it was a true "coin toss" on the outcome. Now, weeks later, Order is guaranteed to lose if Destro gets a ram to the door. And there is definitely fewer Order in the active RVR Lakes as a result.

Seeing as how the overall population is still pretty stable. I must conclude that either: Order is doing less RVR, Order players have switch over to Destro, or (most likely) a combination of both.
What you are seeing is due to the RvR event system change, clear destro pop advantage from what i can tell since they changed the system(system change is not to blame, it's an improvement per se).

To try and force fix faction pop imbalance through a stat boost for the underdog faction is not a good solution, i.e WHs/WEs/Shamans/Magi/AM are already oppressive enough, such stat booster would bring griefing to a maximum. Not only the guaranteed death of every (none x-realming) solo/small scale roamer player but the annoyance of having to deal with some of the overtuned small scale classes with stat booster would seriously make me consider quitting the game.

AAO is not an answer to faction imbalance, but then again does it need to be? Faction pop imbalances have causes and they should be using their resources to look into these issues , not implementing easy fixes to divert the real causes of the imbalance whilst creating new problems that previously did not even exist.

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Edenwolf
Posts: 60

Re: [Suggestion] Replace AAO and WTA Buff/Bane

Post#17 » Sat Jul 23, 2022 2:47 pm

AAO and WTA hinder the overpopulated sides gear progress while increasing said progress to the other. We all get crests and bags at the end of the day, though I can feel for those who are hit by a weakened moral(the real kind.) As you said, it's tidal...the population can shift within the hour and happens often, what it really comes down to is state of mind and the communities will to take on leadership and rally together through "dark times," there is a lot of fun to be had in these moments(and rewards).

Increasing stats etc. to the underpopulated side is never the answer, this would kill any small scale fights and in turn, make zerging more of a necessity for the overpopulated side. Not to mention you shouldn't punish those who've played the game and have earned their gear. Unfortunately, a 2 faction war is the stem of all this and locking out players from their favourite realm via forced population control would only hurt the game. The only thing I could see to fix a string of unbalanced population is the introduction of a pve element to the underpopulated side, as in being able to summon more bodies(or bots) into battle.
Bigfugginaxe SL ~ Blueshift MA ~ Healzealot ZL ~ Stalhrinn IB ~ Tarielle SW ~ Damngurl WE ~ Jediknight SM ~ Windsong AM

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illutian
Posts: 30

Re: [Suggestion] Replace AAO and WTA Buff/Bane

Post#18 » Sun Jul 24, 2022 2:23 am

Farrul wrote: Sat Jul 23, 2022 1:44 pm What you are seeing is due to the RvR event system change, clear destro pop advantage from what i can tell since they changed the system(system change is not to blame, it's an improvement per se).

To try and force fix faction pop imbalance through a stat boost for the underdog faction is not a good solution, i.e WHs/WEs/Shamans/Magi/AM are already oppressive enough, such stat booster would bring griefing to a maximum. Not only the guaranteed death of every (none x-realming) solo/small scale roamer player but the annoyance of having to deal with some of the overtuned small scale classes with stat booster would seriously make me consider quitting the game.

AAO is not an answer to faction imbalance, but then again does it need to be? Faction pop imbalances have causes and they should be using their resources to look into these issues , not implementing easy fixes to divert the real causes of the imbalance whilst creating new problems that previously did not even exist.
And...this change happened ~2 and a half weeks ago? Because that was the start of the difficulty in finishing the RVR Weekly. Last week's wasn't even finished; I got Advanced (Genesis Crests) and quit.

Faction Imbalances are largely the fault of the game creators. There's a reason Horde and Destruction are considered the 'cool factions' in their respect games. These devs can't do much about that due to not having the source code (plus they're doing this purely voluntarily; can't expect them to make a new game). So there needs to be something to step in and force a balance.

BTW: Around this time (10:20pm EST), the faction spread was 42/58. Now it's 38/62. And I'm pretty sure that counts everyone in that tier; PVE and PVP. It's getting worse.
You have to learn the rules of the game. Then play better than anyone else.

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illutian
Posts: 30

Re: [Suggestion] Replace AAO and WTA Buff/Bane

Post#19 » Sun Jul 24, 2022 2:40 am

Edenwolf wrote: Sat Jul 23, 2022 2:47 pm AAO and WTA hinder the overpopulated sides gear progress while increasing said progress to the other. We all get crests and bags at the end of the day, though I can feel for those who are hit by a weakened moral(the real kind.) As you said, it's tidal...the population can shift within the hour and happens often, what it really comes down to is state of mind and the communities will to take on leadership and rally together through "dark times," there is a lot of fun to be had in these moments(and rewards).

Increasing stats etc. to the underpopulated side is never the answer, this would kill any small scale fights and in turn, make zerging more of a necessity for the overpopulated side. Not to mention you shouldn't punish those who've played the game and have earned their gear. Unfortunately, a 2 faction war is the stem of all this and locking out players from their favourite realm via forced population control would only hurt the game. The only thing I could see to fix a string of unbalanced population is the introduction of a pve element to the underpopulated side, as in being able to summon more bodies(or bots) into battle.
AAO and WTA do the exact opposite. I got way more Renown while under WTA because the kills came in faster than with AAO.

I literally get more Renown doing Scenarios at this point. Order hasn't taken or defended a single Keep during most of the times I play. I believe I was 5/7 Keeps for the last RVR Weekly (might have been the Week before last; but it was the first time I hadn't finished a 'take X-number of keeps' requirement for the Weekly).

((I reference Keeps because of the chunk of Renown you get. Which is on par with the 'chunk' you get from Scenarios.))

Summoning 'champions' for your side doesn't work in practice. The overpopulated side just steamrolls the players then kills the summon. My source? WoW's Alterac Valley. Horde have no trouble dispatching the Alliance and then, in some instances as a 'snub', killing Ivus. Before proceeding to win. And that's with an instance forcing body count symmetry.

IF, and I stress 'if', we were to go the route of Summons to balance. You would need a variable amount that depends on how much of body count discrepancy there is.

And, at the point, you're doing exactly what the Boon 'n Bane idea would do: Artificially increase the power projection of the weaker (due to body count) Faction. You're just moving the 'power up' to that of an NPC rather than putting the power in the hand(s) of the player.

Plus, NPCs are notoriously easy to 'cheese'. Back to Ivus in Alterac Valley. A single paladin with epic mount (100% speed) and Pursuit of Justice (+15% running and mount speed) could easily kite Ivus all around his leash point the entire, keeping the script that starts him marching to the Horde base from triggering, the entire round.

EDIT: I also know that the proposed system can be cheesed...logging on to Order alts to give that side the Tzeentch's Bane. Then switching back to gain the Tzeentch's Boon while also having superior numbers. ...but it's a start. And an improvement over dangly relatively useless rewards, to anyone that's play more than a month, as an incentive to step into a slaughter-fest.
You have to learn the rules of the game. Then play better than anyone else.

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facundo7777
Posts: 402

Re: [Suggestion] Replace AAO and WTA Buff/Bane

Post#20 » Sun Jul 24, 2022 7:13 am

Detangler wrote: Sat Jul 23, 2022 4:20 am AAO should ramp up quicker after like 40% AAO. I'd happily die to larger numbers if i'm getting 8x renown (4x for me while they are at half or less) for each kill. And please remove the realm switch timer if you're going from overpopulated to underdog realm. Once server population hits 60/40, make a realm wide message stating switching is free and then another message warning that free switching is ending in 1 minute.

A far easier solution that doesn't crush small scale fights/solo roaming like this boon/bane stat boosting will inevitably do. You'd just push more and more people away from an already dwindling population.
Agree

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