WH and WE steath 30 seconds again

[Dabbart]

How long can a WH/WE be in stealth atm?

- With AP Buff
Unknown to me.

- Without AP Buff
1min23s according to Max here. I don't think it's been changed since?

- Can a WH/WE use Potions in stealth?
No. At least I don't believe you can, not 100% Don't know if/how AP regen works since the change though. Other classes can give you ap via abilities/tactic procs though(just not chosen/knight aura)

- how long stealth in stand?
- how long in stealth when moving?
Standing/moving doesn't alter stealth time/ap usage. It does change the %chance to be uncovered, as does front/side/rear facing the enemy.

[Martok]

How long can a WH/WE be in stealth atm?

It varies. Recently on my Stream I timed it out at 98 seconds, but my record is 104. However, again, I maintain my position the current stealth mechanic is fine.

WE's and WH's are hunters. They should be able to hunt.

[Dabbart]

Spoiler:

How long can a WH/WE be in stealth atm?

It varies. Recently on my Stream I timed it out at 98 seconds, but my record is 104. However, again, I maintain my position the current stealth mechanic is fine.

WE's and WH's are hunters. They should be able to hunt.

Thanks for that info. around 100 seconds currently. So, how would you feel about an upfront AP cost for Stealth? If the AP/s cost was adjusted so the overall stealth time was 60s for low RR and say 80-90s for max RR? Note: just wondering.

The problem isn't the stealth mechanic. It's the classes in their entirety. Current stealth would be powerful but still Ok if there was no insta-stealth imo. Both could be Ok if they didn't have so many CC/survival tools already. IMO, they currently are overtuned as a class. Imo, Stealth should be a tool you use to Engage, have Stealth instead of Charge. Giving you an Insta stealth with speed increase is just overkill, and allows for easy disengages/aggro drop. They already have a root/snare break, plenty of defensive ability/morales, self punt, Pounce/RKD, and all the CC one could need. All this with the spike DPS the classes have always had(slightly nerfed from years ago) Where, exactly, is this class weak? Targetless AoE spam? That needs to be lessened on this server imo, not increased. Edit: Oh yea, and both Heal Debuffs, +Rezz Spike.

I could give a **** about any regen build. Dueling specs are fun, but not game breaking. Solo/duo/trio stealthers are a pain in the ass but not game breaking. A good WE/WH in WB/6man play is an issue. They just have too many tools. I think, that the instant stealth is here to stay. The extra tools they have wont be taken away. Their DPS can't be nerfed or else the class is worthless. So, limiting their Stealth to either a predetermined timed amount, or providing a reliable way to break stealth, or my new idea of adding an upfront AP cost to stealth might lessen their ability to reset the fight as they see fit. It could be that all 3 of these changes wouldn't accomplish a damned thing.

[Sulorie]

Tbh, can you already reliably remove stealth, when you see them half-visible, which nevertheless is supposed to be rare or they class mechanic would be useless.
They have light armor opposed to all other mdps, which makes avoiding damage in the first place their key factor of defense.
Without charge you just get kited, especially in group fights. Originally they had stealth to get close to a target but this doesn't work in practice. In melee engagements you already have to use your disengage/avoidance skills to get into stealth again, because so many enemies are hitting you.
Stealth for the most part works for the first target only, after that you fight without stealth unless nobody hits you - WH/WE just join the brawl with other mdps as you can see in any SC.
Other mdps have charge and pulls, more armor and a lot unique tools. WE/WH have other tools which are situationally better.
The "nerf this, nerf that" is getting so annoying.

[Alucard2010]

Im interested in a short cd/short duration stealth. Something similar to elixir of shadows. (although, longer than that of course). So it's more of a tactical movement rather than a way you can hide from fights or pick on less numbers than you which is what this game needs to move away from if it really wants to grow.

WE is also the only class I play and as a solo roamer it gets kind of funny how these WH groups will often run from you even 1v2 but are happy to jump you 1v4+ and jump on your corpse lmao.
I can't imagine solo roaming on a class without stealth and having to deal with that ****. I would definitely quit and can see why most solo roamers have already.

that's true, however it's not because of stealth or WE being so OP, it's because WH group players are really bad players. there are other WH that roast WEs. propably also applies for WE groups.

WE in regen gear have really low initiative so they get uncovered on a regular basis, WH however just run high dps builds which have high initiative and also tend to group up.
the result is that you can't see WH groups, but the so "OP" WEs. dps WEs deal high dmg but die very fast, imo np even when grouped up.
anyway grouping assassins seem to cause alot of frustration, how about a stealth malus which adds up the more stealthers are around?
they did that on the phoenix daoc freeshard to counter assassin zergs.
i feel that for solo assassins stealth should stay untouched, ppl who die from a dedicated solo assassin will also die when stealth is heavily nerfed.

Why is every other class in the game allowed to group but not WE/WH? Slayers go brrr in 6 man, sorc/rSH kite groups are fawned over, but somehow WH/WE groups that can climb to top charts on zones are always “bad players”.

[Dabbart]

Tbh, can you already reliably remove stealth, when you see them half-visible, which nevertheless is supposed to be rare or they class mechanic would be useless.
They have light armor opposed to all other mdps, which makes avoiding damage in the first place their key factor of defense.
Without charge you just get kited, especially in group fights. Originally they had stealth to get close to a target but this doesn't work in practice. In melee engagements you already have to use your disengage/avoidance skills to get into stealth again, because so many enemies are hitting you.
Stealth for the most part works for the first target only, after that you fight without stealth unless nobody hits you - WH/WE just join the brawl with other mdps as you can see in any SC.
Other mdps have charge and pulls, more armor and a lot unique tools. WE/WH have other tools which are situationally better.
The "nerf this, nerf that" is getting so annoying.

What? They have the best ranged snare ability in the game, WE has a pounce, both classes have speed increase via instant stealth, both classes had a KD, both classes have a self-punt that can be used aggressively, both classes have a snare/root clear and WE has a speed increase on their snare break. How much do they need to make up for lack of charge?!

Why can you only see things in terms of Nerf or Buff? There are many other shades to the world besides black and white buddeh. It's OK to move the numbers a little for what we call balance. And if it turns out to be wrong, viola! change it back.

And no, you can't reliably remove stealth. A % chance to break stealth, which is founded upon a % chance to see them in the first place is NOT reliable.

Edit: Also, I have to disagree with avoiding damage being their key factor of defense. That is a solo/pug argument. Tanks/healers are their key defense, with guard being literally the main. And as I've said previously they have a **** LOAD of defensives. They may need a little more babysitting than other MDPS, but they also can perform higher DPS bursts, with little to no ramp up time. Oh, and they can stealth out to reset the fight. They aren't weak in any regard, other than targetless AoE spam.

[Endari]

So for all the faults live and the original devs had, one thing I really liked was that they had a definite idea of what each class was and should be. If you had utility for your group you did less DPS, hence why on live the Sorc was the undisputed single target burst DPS class as they had virtually no utility, and the BW with some actual utility had lesser single target burst DPS.

On live you had to lose utility to gain damage and vice versa you had to lose damage to gain utility.

DPS healers who had less utility than pure healers did way more DPS but still less damage than pure DPS because they had more utility than that pure DPS.

DPS tanks that had less utility than pure tanks did more DPS than pure tanks but less damage than pure DPS because they still had utility.

What do the current WE/WH lose to get all that new utility they currently have like the instant in-combat stealth with charge? the forever stealth? the pounce? the armor debuff? and all the damn self heals and absorbs?

WE/WH got second stealth with no penalty and it even comes with a freaking Charge built into it that completely kills one of their built-in weaknesses as a NON MOBILE hard hitter, now they hit hard and are hyper mobile. The DoK/WP/WE/WH were all plodding DPS with a gimmick, the DPS DoK/WP with sustain via lifetap, and the WE/WH with stealth and a nice stagger+self punt.

On live you could usually see the WE/WH go stealth because it was only for 30 seconds and you could prepare, I killed many a WH solo on my Sorc because I knew they were coming and had a root timed just right and was able to maintain distance.

In RoR? Almost always no clue they are around because they have super stealth now and can just sit and wait for the perfect ambush and if they still somehow fail to kill you they can just instant stealth+charge away to reset and not even worry about any immunities.

Where on live they had to judge if they could go for the KD right away or maybe needed to save the immunities for the stagger to get away.

Bring back penalties for all this utility.

[zolio]

Good evening,
This thread is turing into a whining rant about stealth classes. Please lets stay productive and on topic.

[Sulorie]

What? They have the best ranged snare ability in the game, WE has a pounce, both classes have speed increase via instant stealth, both classes had a KD, both classes have a self-punt that can be used aggressively, both classes have a snare/root clear and WE has a speed increase on their snare break. How much do they need to make up for lack of charge?!

...

And no, you can't reliably remove stealth. A % chance to break stealth, which is founded upon a % chance to see them in the first place is NOT reliable.

...

Dagger throw has a cast time, which gets bigger the more people are hitting you. When you are snared, snaring others 65ft away doesn't help as either you or them can use snare immunity. Other melee dps just pull. A melee snare is in most cases more useful as target don't get away in the first place. Dagger throw is most useful if some single target is running away and you are still in throw range, which is most likely the case in solo encounters or group fights, where your side beat the opposition.

You have to hit them more than once with melee or instant casts, as dots don't count. The chance is quite high on hitting them if you see them in the first place.
What should never be reliable is seeing them, or stealth becomes useless.

[Dabbart]

Spoiler:

What? They have the best ranged snare ability in the game, WE has a pounce, both classes have speed increase via instant stealth, both classes had a KD, both classes have a self-punt that can be used aggressively, both classes have a snare/root clear and WE has a speed increase on their snare break. How much do they need to make up for lack of charge?!

...

And no, you can't reliably remove stealth. A % chance to break stealth, which is founded upon a % chance to see them in the first place is NOT reliable.

...

Dagger throw has a cast time, which gets bigger the more people are hitting you. When you are snared, snaring others 65ft away doesn't help as either you or them can use snare immunity. Other melee dps just pull. A melee snare is in most cases more useful as target don't get away in the first place. Dagger throw is most useful if some single target is running away and you are still in throw range, which is most likely the case in solo encounters or group fights, where your side beat the opposition.

You have to hit them more than once with melee or instant casts, as dots don't count. The chance is quite high on hitting them if you see them in the first place.
What should never be reliable is seeing them, or stealth becomes useless.

And? What is your point on the snare? How does a melee snare help against kiting in a way charge would solve, but not insta stealth? Wtf are you arguing? Cause it's not about a point I made. I very clearly said Ranged Snare. If you aren't PUGing you will have a tank. Shockingly, they all have melee snares, some of them have aoe snares.

And yes. Multiple hits required, why? Because there's no reliable way to break stealth. If you think there shouldn't be. That's fine, and a different argument, but you literally just made the point that you could reliably remove stealth currently... if you can't reliably spot them, how can you reliably break stealth? A % of a % is not reliable.

Edit:@Zolio I don't know who you targeted that towards. The OP is about stealth being OP(see what I did there?), I don't see how we're whining in here, much less off topic...