WH and WE steath 30 seconds again

[inoeth]

right now i get the feeling that ppl do not really know what exactly is so powerfull on these classes that they need a nerf. they throw in random unique stuff that define the classes. it's more like a "i got killed in rvr, plz nerf"-l2p issue. stealth was already nerfed heavily and it didn't change anything regarding gank squads.

@alucard i did not claim that assassins should not be allowed to group up, but when they do the issue is that you do not see them coming, leading to be getting chain farmed in many cases. if other classes group up you see them and turn around try to escape. thats the major difference and also the reason why so many ppl feel that assassins should be nerfed somehow. i get that, but i don't feel like the classes itself should be nerfed because they are fine. the issue comes in when they group and gank, so what can be done about this while not touching solo players?

[Sulorie]

Spoiler:

What? They have the best ranged snare ability in the game, WE has a pounce, both classes have speed increase via instant stealth, both classes had a KD, both classes have a self-punt that can be used aggressively, both classes have a snare/root clear and WE has a speed increase on their snare break. How much do they need to make up for lack of charge?!

...

And no, you can't reliably remove stealth. A % chance to break stealth, which is founded upon a % chance to see them in the first place is NOT reliable.

...

Dagger throw has a cast time, which gets bigger the more people are hitting you. When you are snared, snaring others 65ft away doesn't help as either you or them can use snare immunity. Other melee dps just pull. A melee snare is in most cases more useful as target don't get away in the first place. Dagger throw is most useful if some single target is running away and you are still in throw range, which is most likely the case in solo encounters or group fights, where your side beat the opposition.

You have to hit them more than once with melee or instant casts, as dots don't count. The chance is quite high on hitting them if you see them in the first place.
What should never be reliable is seeing them, or stealth becomes useless.

And? What is your point on the snare? How does a melee snare help against kiting in a way charge would solve, but not insta stealth? Wtf are you arguing? Cause it's not about a point I made. I very clearly said Ranged Snare. If you aren't PUGing you will have a tank. Shockingly, they all have melee snares, some of them have aoe snares.

And yes. Multiple hits required, why? Because there's no reliable way to break stealth. If you think there shouldn't be. That's fine, and a different argument, but you literally just made the point that you could reliably remove stealth currently... if you can't reliably spot them, how can you reliably break stealth? A % of a % is not reliable.

Seeing someone and breaking stealth are 2 separate things. The first is less likely.
The moment you see them, it's easy to remove stealth by hitting them a few times, which is my experience when seeing them, yours might differ.
In your argument you focus on the end result - removing their stealth - which should be reliable. This means the first part "seeing them" would have to happen more often, which invalidates stealth.

Would you agree that mdps have better tools to remove snare in order to get to a targets than tanks?
If you agree, don't you think melee snare would be most useful once in melee range considering you can't throw daggers during charge, therefore your target is most likely not snared anymore?

[Dabbart]

No. How does one break stealth if you don't see the wh/we? Spotting them is mandatory to break the stealth. Otherwise what? Back to spamming targetless aoe? I already covered that a few times in this thread.

I would agree that has nothing at all to do with our discussion. Mdps have a snare clear, tanks have have one too, Juggernaut. Oh and SMs have M1 Pounce. Healers have the Cleanse on 5s CD. Trees have leaves, and birds have feathers. Wtf does that have to do with any if the points i brought up in relation to the arguments you put forth that Stealth shouldn't be adjusted?

We are discussing stealth. You brought up anti kiting, i listed the entire tool set stealthers have which included the "best ranged snare in the game"(imo), and now you are mentally stuck on melee vs ranged snare... honestly, what are you even arguing?

[Alucard2010]

right now i get the feeling that ppl do not really know what exactly is so powerfull on these classes that they need a nerf. they throw in random unique stuff that define the classes. it's more like a "i got killed in rvr, plz nerf"-l2p issue. stealth was already nerfed heavily and it didn't change anything regarding gank squads.

@alucard i did not claim that assassins should not be allowed to group up, but when they do the issue is that you do not see them coming, leading to be getting chain farmed in many cases. if other classes group up you see them and turn around try to escape. thats the major difference and also the reason why so many ppl feel that assassins should be nerfed somehow. i get that, but i don't feel like the classes itself should be nerfed because they are fine. the issue comes in when they group and gank , so what can be done about this while not touching solo players?

The issue is when they group and gank. Gank what exactly?

Solo players? They die to 6 mans, WBs, zergs all the time. What difference does it make if it’s stealthers vs any of the above listed groups. This is a group game, if you don’t want to die to groups of players, get into a group.

Other 6 mans? Do WH/WE pods ever win this fight?

WBs? No WH/WE group is opening on this.

IMO - WH/WE form small man groups out of necessity. The zones are very zergy and congested. They need a quick kill time to avoid being run over constantly by roaming WBs. Combine that with the increased # of regen tanks, defensive magus and they just dont compete in the 1v1 scene - they can’t kill them fast enough before a Zerg shows up and mows them over. The classes don’t get invited to WBs simply because having an extra slayer/choppa/WL/Mara is almost always better when trying to fight in WB play.

In 24v24 instanced play, yes they have their place simply because of spike and needing to end the eternal rez cycle of the opposing faction. In ORvR, this is a non factor and is mostly about kill kill kill push push push.

[Sulorie]

No. How does one break stealth if you don't see the wh/we? Spotting them is mandatory to break the stealth. Otherwise what? Back to spamming targetless aoe? I already covered that a few times in this thread.

I would agree that has nothing at all to do with our discussion. Mdps have a snare clear, tanks have have one too, Juggernaut. Oh and SMs have M1 Pounce. Healers have the Cleanse on 5s CD. Trees have leaves, and birds have feathers. Wtf does that have to do with any if the points i brought up in relation to the arguments you put forth that Stealth shouldn't be adjusted?

We are discussing stealth. You brought up anti kiting, i listed the entire tool set stealthers have which included the "best ranged snare in the game"(imo), and now you are mentally stuck on melee vs ranged snare... honestly, what are you even arguing?

Maybe you should play WE or WH to see the bigger picture and not simplify the discussion by talking about stealth only as it affects a lot more.
You wouldn't bring up pounce, which is tied to stealth in the first place and fleet footed, which you only use in solo play when swapping your tactic set to approach rdps, because it means a notable DPS loss in any group fight.
Do you really want to compare tank one time snare removal to 10s immunity plus charge for mdps.
Let's argue with a moral ability available to 1/6 tanks?

Once more, you are not supposed to see them approaching you, otherwise why stealth in the first place. Yet there is a chance to see them (part one, less likely to happen) and mess up their opener by removing stealth on attack (part two, high chance once you see them).
Does the charge needs a mini stealth one can argue and I wouldn't defend to keep it. Dagger snare was different on live and could be adjusted or at least bugfixed. The way how stealth works in general and them having a charge is totally fine imo.

[Dabbart]

So... You're just gonna keep going on tangents and changing arguments you made, just a few posts ago.

Gl mate. I've made my points. I see no need to chase you down a rabbit hole.

[Sulorie]

So... You're just gonna keep going on tangents and changing arguments you made, just a few posts ago.

Gl mate. I've made my points. I see no need to chase you down a rabbit hole.

If you read this out of my direct responses to your quotes, I guess it is indeed a fruitless discussion. Have a nice day.

[inoeth]

right now i get the feeling that ppl do not really know what exactly is so powerfull on these classes that they need a nerf. they throw in random unique stuff that define the classes. it's more like a "i got killed in rvr, plz nerf"-l2p issue. stealth was already nerfed heavily and it didn't change anything regarding gank squads.

@alucard i did not claim that assassins should not be allowed to group up, but when they do the issue is that you do not see them coming, leading to be getting chain farmed in many cases. if other classes group up you see them and turn around try to escape. thats the major difference and also the reason why so many ppl feel that assassins should be nerfed somehow. i get that, but i don't feel like the classes itself should be nerfed because they are fine. the issue comes in when they group and gank , so what can be done about this while not touching solo players?

The issue is when they group and gank. Gank what exactly?

Solo players? They die to 6 mans, WBs, zergs all the time. What difference does it make if it’s stealthers vs any of the above listed groups. This is a group game, if you don’t want to die to groups of players, get into a group.

Other 6 mans? Do WH/WE pods ever win this fight?

WBs? No WH/WE group is opening on this.

IMO - WH/WE form small man groups out of necessity. The zones are very zergy and congested. They need a quick kill time to avoid being run over constantly by roaming WBs. Combine that with the increased # of regen tanks, defensive magus and they just dont compete in the 1v1 scene - they can’t kill them fast enough before a Zerg shows up and mows them over. The classes don’t get invited to WBs simply because having an extra slayer/choppa/WL/Mara is almost always better when trying to fight in WB play.

In 24v24 instanced play, yes they have their place simply because of spike and needing to end the eternal rez cycle of the opposing faction. In ORvR, this is a non factor and is mostly about kill kill kill push push push.

/yawn what a weak argument. sure they die to other groups when they are dumb enough to jump them, but in fact these WH groups only attack solos. you must be one of them if you cry like that.

[Alucard2010]

right now i get the feeling that ppl do not really know what exactly is so powerfull on these classes that they need a nerf. they throw in random unique stuff that define the classes. it's more like a "i got killed in rvr, plz nerf"-l2p issue. stealth was already nerfed heavily and it didn't change anything regarding gank squads.

@alucard i did not claim that assassins should not be allowed to group up, but when they do the issue is that you do not see them coming, leading to be getting chain farmed in many cases. if other classes group up you see them and turn around try to escape. thats the major difference and also the reason why so many ppl feel that assassins should be nerfed somehow. i get that, but i don't feel like the classes itself should be nerfed because they are fine. the issue comes in when they group and gank , so what can be done about this while not touching solo players?

The issue is when they group and gank. Gank what exactly?

Solo players? They die to 6 mans, WBs, zergs all the time. What difference does it make if it’s stealthers vs any of the above listed groups. This is a group game, if you don’t want to die to groups of players, get into a group.

Other 6 mans? Do WH/WE pods ever win this fight?

WBs? No WH/WE group is opening on this.

IMO - WH/WE form small man groups out of necessity. The zones are very zergy and congested. They need a quick kill time to avoid being run over constantly by roaming WBs. Combine that with the increased # of regen tanks, defensive magus and they just dont compete in the 1v1 scene - they can’t kill them fast enough before a Zerg shows up and mows them over. The classes don’t get invited to WBs simply because having an extra slayer/choppa/WL/Mara is almost always better when trying to fight in WB play.

In 24v24 instanced play, yes they have their place simply because of spike and needing to end the eternal rez cycle of the opposing faction. In ORvR, this is a non factor and is mostly about kill kill kill push push push.

/yawn what a weak argument. sure they die to other groups when they are dumb enough to jump them, but in fact these WH groups only attack solos. you must be one of them if you cry like that.

Wow, what a deflection. Cant argue the position so you attack with this “cry” childish remark and dismiss. Calling something “weak” without an actual response is in fact a weak non-existent retort.

I’ve seen these groups hit groups of 2-3 before, so it isn’t just solos. If you form a proper group, join a WB, or stick close to Zerg, they are a non factor and overall have zero impact on the campaign. They are such a non factor that If you play in an organized WB or 6 man, you likely have no clue they even exist in the zone until someone rages in /1.