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Balancing scenarios for 50% winrate even with pug vs premade.

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Structured class balance suggestions belong in the Balance Proposal subforum. Class-related discussion in this section are considered as ongoing debates and ARE NOT reviewed for balance changes.
Ashoris
Posts: 346

Re: Balancing scenarios for 50% winrate even with pug vs premade.

Post#21 » Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:42 pm

inoeth wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 7:43 am I have an idea which is coming from guild wars 2, there they also have instanced scenarios.
but gear does not play a role there because player level and equipment get equalized.
you can chose a set of stats (str focused, int focused, ...) and a set of weaponprocs.

I know this does not fit 100% in RoR because class mechanics are very different in GW2, but might be a step in a direction where equipment is noch such a big deal, especially for newer players who might want to leave after getting stomped by sov people.

my two cents
This is what RoR was in the beginning ... literally no equip or green vendor equip ... later on, first easy to obtain sets.


Do you know which grp was constantly crying for new content in form of new equipment ? The normal average Player !
The "so called" "leet 6 man" Player were totally fine just playing PvP and do not have to care for Equipment. The current Situation and Gear progression is wanted and forced by the casual normal Players.
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inoeth
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Re: Balancing scenarios for 50% winrate even with pug vs premade.

Post#22 » Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:51 pm

Ashoris wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:42 pm
inoeth wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 7:43 am I have an idea which is coming from guild wars 2, there they also have instanced scenarios.
but gear does not play a role there because player level and equipment get equalized.
you can chose a set of stats (str focused, int focused, ...) and a set of weaponprocs.

I know this does not fit 100% in RoR because class mechanics are very different in GW2, but might be a step in a direction where equipment is noch such a big deal, especially for newer players who might want to leave after getting stomped by sov people.

my two cents
This is what RoR was in the beginning ... literally no equip or green vendor equip ... later on, first easy to obtain sets.


Do you know which grp was constantly crying for new content in form of new equipment ? The normal average Player !
The "so called" "leet 6 man" Player were totally fine just playing PvP and do not have to care for Equipment. The current Situation and Gear progression is wanted and forced by the casual normal Players.
the game would be so much better without casuals. really?!

i don't think it helps to point the finger on someone specific. gear progression has become easier that's right, but still if you are a fresh cr40 and have to play against sov people, it's hard.
anyway i like the idea of collecting/losing points for winning/losing and a match making that is bound to the amount of points you have, that way people with the same skill face each other and can have fair fights. very good players will find it more challenging to win and not stomping helpless people. win win for everyone, at least in theory.

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Dolo
Posts: 37

Re: Balancing scenarios for 50% winrate even with pug vs premade.

Post#23 » Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:58 pm

Never aim for equality of outcome. But for equality of opportunity. No premade vs pug for the few parties on the server that are too bad at the game to compete against other premades.
Still want pig mounts for dwarves.

Maltar
Posts: 27

Re: Balancing scenarios for 50% winrate even with pug vs premade.

Post#24 » Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:59 pm

The bolster system has it's own can of issues deeply rooted in class balance, player knowledge, and stacking gear and stats to maximize it's effect on your performance while often punishing leveling up too fast.

The tools needed for my suggestion are mostly available already, there is logging tools for win ratios, and all that is needed is a number that gets +1 or +2 and -10% to give value to a player. It balances itself over time, with no regard for if you are playing a perfectly geared character or a squishy cloth user in full wp talis. But a sc will never be ruined by a weak party or poorly geared player to the extent that can and does happen today.

It also will not matter if you are playing a generally accepted weak build or class, as your overall point score will reflect this and have been taken into account when balancing the sc.


It would be extremely hard to balance bolster, and completely falls apart if faced with premade characters on twinked alts. It falls outside of my suggestion to fully go through all the ways in which bolster could be abused or gamed in t4, it could have some improvements for some classes and builds while leveling, but overall it would not fix the premade vs pug issue and introduce it's own list of issues at the same time.

You would still need to split the premade from the pugs and thereby even further split and fracture the already limited playerbase to avoid massively unbalanced fights.

My suggestion on the other hand lets any player grow at their own pace, while always facing an appropriate level of difficulty to have a decent chance of winning. And it leaves the option of going to the pug sc if you want to try out alone or as a duo to face what chance puts against you, or go to ranked if you want to test yourself in a strict 6v6.

And you still have a decent chance of a 6v6 with this system, as you can always be matched with any group that performs as well as you do.

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wargrimnir
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Re: Balancing scenarios for 50% winrate even with pug vs premade.

Post#25 » Mon Aug 08, 2022 10:03 pm

Equality is overrated. Perfectly balanced PVP exists with far better implementations elsewhere. This is one of the few games left in the genre that you can enjoy PVP where your gear matters and can outweigh some level of skill. Yes other games have had success, it's no surprise that people have enjoyed other systems. People still enjoy this one, and it's the one we've had since the beginning. It's understandable you've seen another system be successful, and while struggling with our system you would pine for what you found to be successful, but that ain't us. Selfish on your part to suggest such a core part of PVP should be changed, and selfish on our part to stick with it when some other games have had success, perhaps.

Bolster is a small nod towards this direction of equality in gear, but if we truly wanted to implement equality you wouldn't need stats on gear, just skins. That would severely limit the amount of items to collect in the game as items share many different models across tiers, but the stats are equally if not moreso valued. It would strip away a lot of the class and build diversity. It would eliminate a lot of the need to hunt down and acquire each specific piece of gear. It would take away the RPG part of the PVP game, and we're not one or the other, we're both.

I would find a move to equality in gear for the sake of balanced PVP to be a terrible mistake in poor judgement of what makes this game unique among it's contemporaries. Any player can find a great number of ways to be successful with their actions in-game and in particular, socially. Once you have an excellent core of players, your winrate goes way up, and when you lose it's not a suffering defeat. Rulesets can't build friendships.
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Maltar
Posts: 27

Re: Balancing scenarios for 50% winrate even with pug vs premade.

Post#26 » Tue Aug 09, 2022 12:15 am

When it comes to gear I definitely agree with Wargrimnir here, as touching gear or trying to implement something along the lines of "streamlined" gear for sc's, or "skin" items would directly kill anything other than cookie cutter builds and WAR would stop existing on the day that would be done.

Which is also why my suggestion does not touch on gear balancing at all and I only responded to the poster suggesting this as it has difficult implications and would derail the conversation about the suggestion, and it is also not on class balancing, but rather only on the one aspect of pushing numbers to even out fights to be more enticing and overall fun for all players, both in challenging the players that today may have issues finding a good fight, and for those who feel that many of the fights today are completely unbalanced.

I never believe we can have, or should have perfect equality, just for everyone to have a fighting chance while learning to become better players. Being chucked into the deep end and fighting the same premades on repeat if you don't have the gear/skill or players to field a premade to counter them is over time toxic to the growth of the game. In no way am I saying that you should not group up and learn to play the game better, but if the game is to have any hope of longevity there is not enough players with weak skills or gear for beginners to face anymore.

The game is old, the playerbase is old, you can't shove experts vs beginners on repeat and expect a better outcome with equal numbers, unless the goal is to keep 1 out of xx amount of players that manage to push through that phase. I desire the game to grow again, for new players to be able to have fun even while doing the long gear grinds, and for premades to have a functional level of enemy to face every day.

The entire idea behind the original suggestion and the adjustments done with several helpful posts from the community along the way, is to highlight that within the tools available there is the possibility of giving both sides of the coin, both veterans and beginners a bigger arena to fight on without having to change classes or change gearing speed. The grind can be kept at it's current speed so longevity is preserved, while getting more interesting fights for everyone.

Keep gearing speed as it is, a slight nudge to renown might be appreciated by some, and I would definitely not be hollering for wanting bolster in t4. The gear is what makes so many of the classes and builds work, and balancing that would be a horrendous job if anyone ever tried to strip stats out of the equation and would frankly ruin the game.

I wanted to air a possibility, and see what the community would come up with to fine tune the suggestion. And I have frankly been impressed with how well that has gone over, with constructive posts, interested voices that have aired their ideas and contributions in pointing out both the upsides and the downsides of the original proposal and how to fix those issues.

On the side of nudging the players into being motivated to group up and organize better, that could be done in tandem with a system like this, if suitable rewards are implemented by the developers, and as the system would make certain that at least an acceptable level of wins would happen for everyone it would be a steady grind that could be sped up by organizing, while still being within reach for anyone no matter class, build or gear. Though that is a much more complicated job, and therefore not something I wanted to include in my suggestion as just getting a more vivid and engaging level of fighting for every player was my main goal. A entertained playerbase is a healthy playerbase.

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wargrimnir
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Re: Balancing scenarios for 50% winrate even with pug vs premade.

Post#27 » Tue Aug 09, 2022 12:40 am

Technically, the answer is ranked everywhere. We've done this already and collect those statistics for normal matches, but it's never been used that way. It still only works well with short enforced queues and a deep enough player pool for that necessary variability. The other bastardized way of gaining variability is allowing mixed faction queuing like they do in ranked, which I personally find abhorrent and insulting to the spirit of the game, but they did it in wrath of heroes... The current system of immediate queue pop as soon as a minimum number of players is found was decided on after a few months of messing around with iterations on the queue system. The playerbase was very loud at the time against any kind of queuing for scenarios, and I can't imagine that would change much.

Even in "balanced" matches there's going to be winners and losers, and balancing isn't going to guarantee a single win when you have players that refuse to self organize and coordinate. There are going to be voices that want change for the sake of it, that's a constant. I would think with how extensively scenarios were worked on to the satisfaction of no-one, the existing system won't be addressed any time soon.
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Maltar
Posts: 27

Re: Balancing scenarios for 50% winrate even with pug vs premade.

Post#28 » Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:19 am

Yeah, and too deep a ranked system would have issues when groups change or disband if on the "normal" ranked system. Rather fast but steady climbs and slightly faster drops of a player or groups ranked is the only viable way I could think off with the current system.

Though it would not be a massive shift from the current one, the only difference from instant pop no matter what classes, would be that the system waits for 1-6 more people to que to balance out the difficulty if a premade is queuing. Aiming for class balance is too tall an order with the current population. But adding a few more players should be doable, you could also force a pop after say 60 seconds if no more players are found, balance be darned.

I remember all the varied ways sc's were touched back then, but it all had the same core issue though, player skill and viability was not taken into account, only archtype balance which both slowed sc pop rate down heavily for dps classes, while not really promoting a fairer fight either, since pug vs premade was still a viable scenario.

And even back then numbers were not great for a deeper system for balancing. I also know that dev resources are in short supply these days, and spread pretty thin.

If a basic test could have been done with minor usage of dev time, then I would love to see it at least tested, to see how players enjoy it or not.
But trying to lay claim to dev time with suggestions when there are so many outstanding issues currently is of course based on a pipedream.

On a personal front I would love more engaging fights with a balance system that is not as unpalatable as ranked is, with all the issues that come from queuing that with anything but cookiecutter or BiS, nor as WB heavy as rvr has become. Solo or premade, I would have loved to be able to have on average at least interesting fights.

We know from experience that many players will never group up or organize, either on principle or because they just prefer playing alone, in their own way. And unless one actively goes on to ruin the game for any player that chooses that, which would destroy numbers even further, the only other choice is to balance things out so that there is minimal impact of any player or group not performing great.

And the only tool left that I can see after thinking about this for the last few years on and off, is to balance it out by putting a value on players and playing with unbalanced population in sc's. One hope from more interesting fights in sc's would be to maybe bring back some of all the old players that have left for more engaging pvp games with more challenges, while not crushing new players spirits when facing any strong groups.

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immdev
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Posts: 23

Re: Balancing scenarios for 50% winrate even with pug vs premade.

Post#29 » Tue Aug 09, 2022 5:44 am

Maltar wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 1:25 pm Players are not equal
Yeah, tell me about it. I don't understand how I managed to be top1 for damage or heal in low, mid and high sc for 95% of the time. This shouldn't be possible for someone who is playing for a month. I outheal 70+rr players. What even?

immdev
Suspended
Posts: 23

Re: Balancing scenarios for 50% winrate even with pug vs premade.

Post#30 » Tue Aug 09, 2022 5:46 am

Isidoro wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 2:00 pm There is not and will not be a balance between classes in this game. Thanks to the local "developers" who play the order. Order is stronger than destruction. If you want to win, play for a warrant.
Tell this to SW with bugged for last 2 YEARS tactic. Or to aSW, who is basically dead weight in every possible scenario, from solo to wb.

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