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Big RvROverhaul BrainStorm

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Avernus
Posts: 321

Re: Big RvROverhaul BrainStorm

Post#11 » Fri Dec 09, 2022 11:58 am

SuperStar wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 9:55 am
Thank you for your reply.

I was waiting for such comments, I am really grateful.

BO:
1. i'm in but if they lose the BO let the npc carrier disappear too.
On GW2 ther was npc carriers they were f boring if you ask me.

2. thank you.

3. very good question and i have a good answer for that. The player champion could exist within the BO scope. Also his strength would scale with the number of enemys in the BO's range, or he would be the strongest player champion next to the BO with only the strength of an average player champion at the edge of the BO's range. I'm really tired of everyone just decapping no one defending BO just running around. I want to see and do well planned attacks. I want long lasting action. Right now only new players are sitting on BO waiting for the box it's very pve. And they are being well bullied. With my idea a new player would be able to hold up a party or wb and hold BO heroically. He shouldn't have to take a lot of damage and wipe out either wb or even a premade party. But hold them long enough for the relief army to arrive. This is a great idea if your goal is to stand on BO and be protected. Full on pug players would gladly defend the BO if they had any chance, because it's much more fun than carrying boxes. My idea would give them the opportunity to survive until the relief army arrives.

4. this idea is essential for people to go and buy BO

5. thank you.

6. it would really spice up the fight. I think they can do it. There was a working idea about showing a map of WB leaders or something.
1. As far as i remember - you have to kick resource carrier, which spawns on the BO, and then he proceed to deliver his stuff. And you will get some reward for escorting him (well, at least for being near him when he reach his target). Obviously, you will kill the carrier if you are capping enemy BO.
3. "This is a great idea if your goal is to stand on BO and be protected" - you said. And How exactly the BO bigman gonna protect anyone if he can't kill even a single party? If you can't do anything except for buying some time - this exactly an NPC work, can't see any fun in this.
4. I don't think that mass teleportation should be a common thing in rvr zone.
6. Maybe.
SuperStar wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 9:55 am KEEP
1. i don't understand why you have to spend 10 minutes beating an npc that doesn't have the slightest challenge in a pvp game. Can you explain it to me please?

2. the most populous and active in the game time that suits you. I would like to see large guilds yes, that would be the goal. AND close cooperation and endless action between big guilds.

3. player controlled lords are great fun. Please explain to me why I don't like the idea? We could kill Felix and Gotrek. Do we need more glory than that?

4. Thank you. I think it's essential that they throw up the sieges.

5. Yeah it should be well balanced to be strong but now impossible to heal out.

6.-7. Sieges are boring especially after 50% because they don't come out of the castle anymore. Perma oil would give the defenders an advantage and would be great fun at the gate. Only the strongest parties could be under the oil and hit the door because of the perma oil and the fact that the defenders can jump in and out and wound you at any time.

7. Could you elaborate, please? Sieges are very boring especially after 50%.
1. Lord's job is not to die while players are still fighting so if you want to kill him you should kill the resistance first. And maybe buy some time for the defenders to organize the counterstrike ( if there is any players willing/able to do so). And lord does this just fine. Why the "zero resistance" situation is happening is another story...

2. And if you are playing with a few friends then you can go to warp?

3. If the said lord can kill a lot this isn't that funny to be at receiving side of this. And if you can't do anything...You've got the idea right?

6,7,8. I've seen this already. WB suddenly jumps from the door killing everyone around and then jumps back to the safety of the keep leaving few lagged/stunned/knocked back dead behind. Please save me from this okay? Ofc people don't come out now - because it's usually not worth it without a good plan/warband to back you up. And it should stay that way.
SuperStar wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 9:55 am Forts:
Hitting NPCs is very boring. Lords shouldn't have crazy damage and wipe wb. But I want more than to punch them in the back for 10 minutes. They could be scaled to how strong they are in which room, or how strong they should be when on top of each other.
I'm really curious why you don't want it that bad. I would like you to explain it better so I can understand.
Ofc its boring. Because it's the opposing players are who should fight with you. And as with keep lords - why they are not fighting it's another story. And i've seen the old sieges where the lork could break your face too. That+aoe fest IS NOT a pleasant experience for sure.
SuperStar wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 9:55 am LotD:
1. would be the old public quests instead and the tombs I explained in 2.-3.
2. everyone likes cosmetic rewards for example.
3. you could bring back the old pocket items with little chance
4. exactly. Much better than running from bo to bo and killing stupid mobs in my opinion. Considering it would take all weekend anyone who likes to do public quests should be able to find a suitable time.
5. The enjoyment and renown.
6. Considering the public quests for mounds and wordboss I think there would be something for everyone to do.
1. Gold scarabs as reward? Okay...Not sure if i want to bother with tombs bosses - unless the gonna drop the pockets again - and only until i'll loot them. Not sure if this system gonna help to fuel the constant conflict in LotD.
2. And when you have them - you don't bother anymore.
3. Read 1 and 2.
4. Suitable time in this situation is usually means that there is not that much people online at the moment to bother your farm...Or just group up to zerg everything.
5. Yeah sure. Just like with empty keeps/forts. Do you even believe in your own words?
6. Yeah, i can agree with that one.

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SuperStar
Posts: 403

Re: Big RvROverhaul BrainStorm

Post#12 » Fri Dec 09, 2022 1:10 pm

Avernus wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 11:58 am

1. As far as i remember - you have to kick resource carrier, which spawns on the BO, and then he proceed to deliver his stuff. And you will get some reward for escorting him (well, at least for being near him when he reach his target). Obviously, you will kill the carrier if you are capping enemy BO.
3. "This is a great idea if your goal is to stand on BO and be protected" - you said. And How exactly the BO bigman gonna protect anyone if he can't kill even a single party? If you can't do anything except for buying some time - this exactly an NPC work, can't see any fun in this.
4. I don't think that mass teleportation should be a common thing in rvr zone.
6. Maybe.
1. Ohh yeah and if nobody around him it is stopped imo its a great idea, also if the carrier on the way and the bo which created them lost. Imo the carrier should die too.

3. Player controlled champ cannot kill a premade party but it can kill solo player and not good half afks group members. (I just love kill champ at city and i would love to kill player contolled famous champs too. They can buy time but after they can do good CC and or mass heal/buff/debuff when the big fight happening or block the way. They are not there to kill the enemy alone.

4. Better than not going there. I think it would be fun less riding more action faster play.
Avernus wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 11:58 am KEEP

1. Lord's job is not to die while players are still fighting so if you want to kill him you should kill the resistance first. And maybe buy some time for the defenders to organize the counterstrike ( if there is any players willing/able to do so). And lord does this just fine. Why the "zero resistance" situation is happening is another story...

2. And if you are playing with a few friends then you can go to warp?

3. If the said lord can kill a lot this isn't that funny to be at receiving side of this. And if you can't do anything...You've got the idea right?

6,7,8. I've seen this already. WB suddenly jumps from the door killing everyone around and then jumps back to the safety of the keep leaving few lagged/stunned/knocked back dead behind. Please save me from this okay? Ofc people don't come out now - because it's usually not worth it without a good plan/warband to back you up. And it should stay that way.
1. Then the lords should not generate morale and maybe they will come back, but again that 10min usually my longest 10min in the game.

2. If somebody play with low numbered guild there are many solutions, join a big guild and play as a six in wb or separate, grow bigger. Or play when they are the most number guild or ask the biggest guild who has the right to be lords to pass them.


3. The player driven lords: They can buy time but after they can do good CC and or mass heal/buff/debuff when the big fight happening or block the way. They are not there to kill the enemy alone.

6-8. I have to agree but if we make the door in out moving limited or just the go in. Maybe 1 person every 5sec. It would be interesting and not boring jump in-out.

Avernus wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 11:58 am Forts:


Ofc its boring. Because it's the opposing players are who should fight with you. And as with keep lords - why they are not fighting it's another story. And i've seen the old sieges where the lork could break your face too. That+aoe fest IS NOT a pleasant experience for sure.
The player driven lords: They can buy time but after they can do good CC and or mass heal/buff/debuff when the big fight happening or block the way. They are not there to kill the enemy alone.
Fort is boring and not because the enemy boring imo. The fort siege mechanic builded to be boring runing capping if we chance the mechanic it can be fun. But we need a good sisge mechanic where everybody can do something usefull.
Avernus wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 11:58 am LotD:


1. Gold scarabs as reward? Okay...Not sure if i want to bother with tombs bosses - unless the gonna drop the pockets again - and only until i'll loot them. Not sure if this system gonna help to fuel the constant conflict in LotD.
2. And when you have them - you don't bother anymore.
3. Read 1 and 2.
4. Suitable time in this situation is usually means that there is not that much people online at the moment to bother your farm...Or just group up to zerg everything.
5. Yeah sure. Just like with empty keeps/forts. Do you even believe in your own words?
6. Yeah, i can agree with that one.
1. Golden scarabs: we need more exotic mount to buy.
2. You can do it with your alts ;)
4. Would be cool imo.
5. Ok then the looser side can kill the wordboss too but the winner side can do more the on the world boss or take less dmg from it.

Avernus
Posts: 321

Re: Big RvROverhaul BrainStorm

Post#13 » Fri Dec 09, 2022 2:13 pm

SuperStar wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 1:10 pm 1. Ohh yeah and if nobody around him it is stopped imo its a great idea, also if the carrier on the way and the bo which created them lost. Imo the carrier should die too.

3. Player controlled champ cannot kill a premade party but it can kill solo player and not good half afks group members. (I just love kill champ at city and i would love to kill player contolled famous champs too. They can buy time but after they can do good CC and or mass heal/buff/debuff when the big fight happening or block the way. They are not there to kill the enemy alone.

4. Better than not going there. I think it would be fun less riding more action faster play.
1. I think the carrier was on autopilot. Just no rr rewards if you wasn't around or something. Don't know if this thing or your idea is better though. Btw why the carrier (if he's already delivering the resource) should die? It's not like the current box killing you the moment it's bo is capped right?

3. If anything it can kill is a few crappy undergeared players without a healer...thats just the old bo but with player instead of npc. Btw just imagine dps shaman/am filth defending this bo? It would be smallscale nighmare because this guys are already disgusting enough. Or smallscale deftard regen tank? And on the large scale it's all the same. No, thanks.

4. And movement supposed to be important you know. No more cunning ambush because someone capped bo behind you and whole enemy zerg just teleport right behind you?
SuperStar wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 1:10 pm 1. Then the lords should not generate morale and maybe they will come back, but again that 10min usually my longest 10min in the game.

2. If somebody play with low numbered guild there are many solutions, join a big guild and play as a six in wb or separate, grow bigger. Or play when they are the most number guild or ask the biggest guild who has the right to be lords to pass them.

3. The player driven lords: They can buy time but after they can do good CC and or mass heal/buff/debuff when the big fight happening or block the way. They are not there to kill the enemy alone.

6-8. I have to agree but if we make the door in out moving limited or just the go in. Maybe 1 person every 5sec. It would be interesting and not boring jump in-out.
1. Maybe. But they probably won't comeback anyway. After all, if the defenders were strong enough they would be still alive. 10 min is probably too much but still - nothing special.

2. So, they SHOULD go to warp after all?

3. Btw what do you think about trolls or idi...uhm, not so bright players? They would be here too, to have their "fun". Not sure that you'll find them funny though. I can still remeber the ch(u)amp who used last stand while being chosen in the city battle. Just the moment the last round started. Riiiiight.....

4. And who will be that person? Sorry but i can't see this working & lookin good.
SuperStar wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 1:10 pm The player driven lords: They can buy time but after they can do good CC and or mass heal/buff/debuff when the big fight happening or block the way. They are not there to kill the enemy alone.
Fort is boring and not because the enemy boring imo. The fort siege mechanic builded to be boring runing capping if we chance the mechanic it can be fun. But we need a good sisge mechanic where everybody can do something usefull.
This mechanic exists for fully populated sides. Yes, i cannot say that it works good. But player lords...it sounds cool but with 100 ppl zerg/or empty fort it's bound to be broken or irrelevant.
SuperStar wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 1:10 pm 1. Golden scarabs: we need more exotic mount to buy.
2. You can do it with your alts ;)
4. Would be cool imo.
5. Ok then the looser side can kill the wordboss too but the winner side can do more the on the world boss or take less dmg from it.
1. I guess we are.
2. Maybe.
5. Maybe.

You know, it looks just like LotD from live. Good place to farm some good things. But not the most active pvp location thats for sure.

User avatar
Stimpz
Posts: 29

Re: Big RvROverhaul BrainStorm

Post#14 » Fri Dec 09, 2022 3:02 pm

The old system was similar to your keep leveling suggestion. You had to hold BOs to level your keep and, at least for me, this system wasn't soooo bad.
You had definitely more fights. The only bad thing about it was, that you got RR ticks for standing at a BO which leads to people standing there afk all the time.
I too, wish for a more fight oriented keep leveling system and welcome every idea that doesn't include box carrying.

But all suggestions, If Bomblings or yours, as good as they might be, can only flourish if the server has a relatively good population and balance between fractions.
Lords controlled by players won't help if there are 100 attackers vs 20 defenders, strong NPCs guarding a BO will probably discourage the weaker fraction to attack BOs at all.

Before we make suggestions about a new RvR system (that doesn't mean you shouldn't do them at all) we should brainstorm about how we could make a more balanced population.
And only wait for a balance patch won't do the trick.

I think, when you have a system with only around 20% imbalance between fractions which also seams fair and doesn't only relies on punishing players for playing the wrong side, you will have more fun in the lakes and can make changes that will work.

Then the next thing is, to think about a system that still makes fun but won't cause stalemate fights where people who need tokens get angry because that damn keep is impossible to get with even numbers.

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Tesq
Posts: 5704

Re: Big RvROverhaul BrainStorm

Post#15 » Sat Dec 10, 2022 9:50 pm

Player lord would be a good mechanic To help underdog to move lord onto last floor which mean heavilu zerged side could get some rebalance by play termopili.

Any flag system with out a timer to stop snowballing is still a no go. Ofc not the pre 1.4 single flag timer.
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SuperStar
Posts: 403

Re: Big RvROverhaul BrainStorm

Post#16 » Mon Dec 12, 2022 8:44 am

Avernus wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 2:13 pm
1. I think the carrier was on autopilot. Just no rr rewards if you wasn't around or something. Don't know if this thing or your idea is better though. Btw why the carrier (if he's already delivering the resource) should die? It's not like the current box killing you the moment it's bo is capped right?

3. If anything it can kill is a few crappy undergeared players without a healer...thats just the old bo but with player instead of npc. Btw just imagine dps shaman/am filth defending this bo? It would be smallscale nighmare because this guys are already disgusting enough. Or smallscale deftard regen tank? And on the large scale it's all the same. No, thanks.

4. And movement supposed to be important you know. No more cunning ambush because someone capped bo behind you and whole enemy zerg just teleport right behind you?
1. Yep if the npc carrier on the way and the home bo is lost the npc carrier should die. No point in other ways. I would like to ppl stay and fight on bo def it. I really bored the constant running. Every body run back until they were be more. I would like to see planned tactical cooporeted attacks aganist bo. As much as we can.

3. Player driven Lords:
Four abilities:
A.) Aoe attack 45 or 60 degree for 60feet
unmitigated fix 300 dmg with 1,5 gcd and no
CD
B.) Aoe snare like Am/Sm ground targeted 60
feet diameter for 10s with 30s CD
C.) -50% dmg reduction ground targeted 60
feet diameter for 10s with 30s CD
D.) Aoe KD ground targeted 60
feet diameter for 2s with 30s CD

It should scaled with the circumstances and we need more ideas for more player driven lords but this is how i imagine them big tough warhammer fantasy characters with big buff debuffs and cc.

4. If whole warband could port to bo the game would be more fun faster and tactical. (Would be good if we can port to one bo to another bo too (only self) depends on the population balance)
Movement until the fight is basically you run back until got support and/or somebody flank them or/and try to find a good funnel spot. Its boring imo. A good planned coordineted attack aganist a new mechanic bo would be more fun.

Avernus wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 2:13 pm
1. Maybe. But they probably won't comeback anyway. After all, if the defenders were strong enough they would be still alive. 10 min is probably too much but still - nothing special.

2. So, they SHOULD go to warp after all?

3. Btw what do you think about trolls or idi...uhm, not so bright players? They would be here too, to have their "fun". Not sure that you'll find them funny though. I can still remeber the ch(u)amp who used last stand while being chosen in the city battle. Just the moment the last round started. Riiiiight.....

4. And who will be that person? Sorry but i can't see this working & lookin good.
1. They would come back imo coz what other they can do, but they got morale bomb instantly.

2. No they can be lords too but the big guild should have the right and the decision. After all this is a mmo and we talk about war and warbands. Solo player should not spawn ram either. If a six man is good and have a good relationship with big guilds they can ask the right to be lords.

3. This is why i talked about the biggest guild in the zone have the right to chose lord. And like i wrote:
Player driven Lords:
Four abilities:
A.) Aoe attack 45 or 60 degree for 60feet
unmitigated fix 300 dmg with 1,5 gcd and no
CD
B.) Aoe snare like Am/Sm ground targeted 60
feet diameter for 10s with 30s CD
C.) -50% dmg reduction ground targeted 60
feet diameter for 10s with 30s CD
D.) Aoe KD ground targeted 60
feet diameter for 2s with 30s CD

They should be famous warhammer fantasy characters. So it would not be like in city.
Avernus wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 2:13 pm
This mechanic exists for fully populated sides. Yes, i cannot say that it works good. But player lords...it sounds cool but with 100 ppl zerg/or empty fort it's bound to be broken or irrelevant.
Player driven lords would fix the empty keep problems coz be a lord is fun and with lords you have big chance to get renown and kill even if you are alone(scaled lords).

Avernus wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 2:13 pm
1. I guess we are.
2. Maybe.
5. Maybe.

You know, it looks just like LotD from live. Good place to farm some good things. But not the most active pvp location thats for sure.
Yep it was good. No need to fix what wasnt broken players loved lotd.

Current lotd is not good players not liked it.
Its usually warcamp farm or/and running.

We need cool rewards and freedom (whole weekend event, world boss, tombs, pqs)
The players can solve the rest, no need the plan and regulation every lil details coz players wont follow them, they/we have different information and needs and preferences and game time.

User avatar
Tesq
Posts: 5704

Re: Big RvROverhaul BrainStorm

Post#17 » Mon Dec 12, 2022 5:50 pm

Spoiler:
SuperStar wrote: Mon Dec 12, 2022 8:44 am
Avernus wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 2:13 pm
1. I think the carrier was on autopilot. Just no rr rewards if you wasn't around or something. Don't know if this thing or your idea is better though. Btw why the carrier (if he's already delivering the resource) should die? It's not like the current box killing you the moment it's bo is capped right?

3. If anything it can kill is a few crappy undergeared players without a healer...thats just the old bo but with player instead of npc. Btw just imagine dps shaman/am filth defending this bo? It would be smallscale nighmare because this guys are already disgusting enough. Or smallscale deftard regen tank? And on the large scale it's all the same. No, thanks.

4. And movement supposed to be important you know. No more cunning ambush because someone capped bo behind you and whole enemy zerg just teleport right behind you?
1. Yep if the npc carrier on the way and the home bo is lost the npc carrier should die. No point in other ways. I would like to ppl stay and fight on bo def it. I really bored the constant running. Every body run back until they were be more. I would like to see planned tactical cooporeted attacks aganist bo. As much as we can.

3. Player driven Lords:
Four abilities:
A.) Aoe attack 45 or 60 degree for 60feet
unmitigated fix 300 dmg with 1,5 gcd and no
CD
B.) Aoe snare like Am/Sm ground targeted 60
feet diameter for 10s with 30s CD
C.) -50% dmg reduction ground targeted 60
feet diameter for 10s with 30s CD
D.) Aoe KD ground targeted 60
feet diameter for 2s with 30s CD

It should scaled with the circumstances and we need more ideas for more player driven lords but this is how i imagine them big tough warhammer fantasy characters with big buff debuffs and cc.

4. If whole warband could port to bo the game would be more fun faster and tactical. (Would be good if we can port to one bo to another bo too (only self) depends on the population balance)
Movement until the fight is basically you run back until got support and/or somebody flank them or/and try to find a good funnel spot. Its boring imo. A good planned coordineted attack aganist a new mechanic bo would be more fun.

Avernus wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 2:13 pm
1. Maybe. But they probably won't comeback anyway. After all, if the defenders were strong enough they would be still alive. 10 min is probably too much but still - nothing special.

2. So, they SHOULD go to warp after all?

3. Btw what do you think about trolls or idi...uhm, not so bright players? They would be here too, to have their "fun". Not sure that you'll find them funny though. I can still remeber the ch(u)amp who used last stand while being chosen in the city battle. Just the moment the last round started. Riiiiight.....

4. And who will be that person? Sorry but i can't see this working & lookin good.
1. They would come back imo coz what other they can do, but they got morale bomb instantly.

2. No they can be lords too but the big guild should have the right and the decision. After all this is a mmo and we talk about war and warbands. Solo player should not spawn ram either. If a six man is good and have a good relationship with big guilds they can ask the right to be lords.

3. This is why i talked about the biggest guild in the zone have the right to chose lord. And like i wrote:
Player driven Lords:
Four abilities:
A.) Aoe attack 45 or 60 degree for 60feet
unmitigated fix 300 dmg with 1,5 gcd and no
CD
B.) Aoe snare like Am/Sm ground targeted 60
feet diameter for 10s with 30s CD
C.) -50% dmg reduction ground targeted 60
feet diameter for 10s with 30s CD
D.) Aoe KD ground targeted 60
feet diameter for 2s with 30s CD

They should be famous warhammer fantasy characters. So it would not be like in city.
Avernus wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 2:13 pm
This mechanic exists for fully populated sides. Yes, i cannot say that it works good. But player lords...it sounds cool but with 100 ppl zerg/or empty fort it's bound to be broken or irrelevant.
Player driven lords would fix the empty keep problems coz be a lord is fun and with lords you have big chance to get renown and kill even if you are alone(scaled lords).

Avernus wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 2:13 pm
1. I guess we are.
2. Maybe.
5. Maybe.

You know, it looks just like LotD from live. Good place to farm some good things. But not the most active pvp location thats for sure.
Yep it was good. No need to fix what wasnt broken players loved lotd.

Current lotd is not good players not liked it.
Its usually warcamp farm or/and running.

We need cool rewards and freedom (whole weekend event, world boss, tombs, pqs)
The players can solve the rest, no need the plan and regulation every lil details coz players wont follow them, they/we have different information and needs and preferences and game time.
Lotd is too big atm, too many transition time while you have a very far away centric focus of action.

The old warcap assault lotd is required for fort imo. Scrapping prison mechanic and opening the zone back while also make it hard again to cap it. Is the way to go, you make it more dinamic like it used to be but you also fix the " leave fort " unbrained and uncoordinated to allow defenders to punish attacker makiing fort really like a zone. Which instead have to be managed carefully.

Lotd need some bridge/geography change to be made viable, also way too big of a zone for variables numbers. The concept wiuld require 500+ vs 500 all the time to work imo.
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