Add (or extend) a minimum wait time for a new scenario pop

[Bosli]

Disclaimer: As we don't have details about how scenario queues and pops exactly work (afaik), I'm going to assume a few things based on the many scenarios I play daily (and pretty much exclusively). I assume these things because I feel like on weekend scenarios, matches are often "unbalanced" as in premade against no premade, even when there are (multiple) premades on both realms. I also check the killboard scenario sometimes (without doing any actual data processing, feel free), and it seems like many matches during these specific times are 500-0 or pretty close to that.
Also, do not start the "just make a premade löl" discussion / do not feed into someone trying to start it.

So from what I can tell, a regular scenario pops when it has a certain amount of players from both realms (4v4 I think is the minimum). This matchup and pop happens instantly or near-instantly when this amount of players (or more) are in the queue. That is absolutely fine most of the time, but the weekend scenario events with multiple premades wanting to play them cause a specific problem with this.

Let's assume we have one 6man premade on each realm and about 10 pugs queueing solo on each realm for that specific event scenario.
In one match, it's one premade with 6 pugs against the other premade with 6 pugs, a good matchup for a likely balanced/interesting/fun match. A few other players are already in queue, but for some reason a match doesn't pop (not enough players on one realm).

After this match ends, both premades queue again with a small difference in timing. One premade gets the instant pop against some of the pugs that were already in queue. Now, the matchmaker tries to continually keep the match balanced with at most one or two (not 100% sure) player-difference between the teams. This means, it's highly unlikely for the 6man team to "get into" the "already open" (though freshly started and still in preparation time) scenario match because more pug signups on the team with the 6man only "trickle in", so the matchmaker considers the teams too uneven to put in the other 6man. Now we have a match with 1x6+6x1 against 12x1.

The match is now filled, and once there are 4/5 players in queue, the other premade gets their pop, also against full solo queuers. It's pretty likely that both matches are unbalanced, and also likely that they stay unbalanced because the matches ending = queue time go naturally out of sync for the two premades for one or more matches.


For a few hours of EU time on Fridays to Sundays, this actually becomes a problem because the premades more often than not end up avoiding each other due to the matchmaker (also depends on how many premades are on each side - maybe one premade on destro keeps fighting a couple different order premades, but only because there is 1 vs 3 premades).

The longer the matchmaker keeps the pop from happening, the more likely it would be that it can match an even amount of 6mans (or even 3mans, or any number really) on both sides. Obviously we can't have it be 5 minutes, but I feel like a wait time of up to one full minute between newly starting matches is reasonable and worth a try as it would potentially make scenarios a lot more even.


I hope it's understandable and exemplified well enough what I mean and where the (potential, not proven) problem is.

(Not going into details of how to "fix leftover players" to not get a pop or similar, I just want to have this discussion because of (see disclaimer at top))

[inoeth]

by reading your text i wonder if you know what "pug" really means? afaik its pick up group, so speaking about "6 pugs vs premade" in my brains its 36 vs 6

[Bosli]

by reading your text i wonder if you know what "pug" really means? afaik its pick up group, so speaking about "6 pugs vs premade" in my brains its 36 vs 6

I wonder, what do you think? If someone writes in region chat or says in discord "a couple pugs on the flag", do they mean a couple players or a couple groups? Pretty big difference, and a pretty small word to try and argue about.

Also, I don't think the text would get any more or less confusing by swapping every "pug" with "solo players".

[nocturnalguest]

Dont know how MM actually works but i believe you describe it more or less accurate. However tho, issue of "pug vs. premade" is too overheated. Amount of premades that are really scary is extremely low, there are actually only 1-3 groups that will win pretty much everyone and they q very very rarely plus mostly on some twinks (1-2 ppl could be on their mains to balance the team but it cant be considered as core group) to get fast rewards. i dont think i ever saw a full core group in warfront at all and its as rare as the unicorn that their composition is absolutely fitting for the job. most of the time its pug groups with 1-3 fillers from either /a or friend list. its no tournament 6v6 to sweat, so they themselves aint that focused and are beatable. and like 90+% of what is called "premades" in massive forum whinning is actually ragtag /5. So despite difficulties about accepting harsh truth, its all down to gud ol' "gitgud and form premade".
To truly balance matches first and most important MM would need to form preset proper group compositions (kotbs-sm-asw/wh-wl-rp-am, bg-chosen-we-choppa-zeal-dok etc, and those will differ if its 6v6, 12v12, 18v18) and that would result in q time of 1+ hour in EU prime at very very best (like if people coordinate beforehand on discord etc), common situation would be that SCs wont pop EVER, second it would need to ensure that people on those classes are properly spec (like dont pop if choppa has no m4 specced, balance shield vs none shield etc) and then there should also be additional conditions i wont bother to mention as they are not so critically important as 2 mentioned before. All other "half" measures wont drastically effect a stompy nature of SCs at all.
Like i said many times before, i see only 1 possible solution to help a situation, evaluate deeply and only then start to develop big changes (beside what Gravord proposed recently but those are also technically "half" measures to ease the pain but dont fully exclude the stomps, but i like said in that thread - it cant get worse anyway) - show whats in q and let players balance it out themselves.

[Sulorie]

People should be able to see what classes are in queue to make an informed decision what class to play in order to get fast pops. The tools for this should be already implemented as it worked like this for solo ranked SC.
Furthermore everyone should have a fixed position in waiting queue to avoid randomness in pops, where e.g. some DPS players get more pops by sheer luck, while others sit in queue for ages, while their friends get their next pop.

[Bosli]

People should be able to see what classes are in queue to make an informed decision what class to play in order to get fast pops. The tools for this should be already implemented as it worked like this for solo ranked SC.
Furthermore everyone should have a fixed position in waiting queue to avoid randomness in pops, where e.g. some DPS players get more pops by sheer luck, while others sit in queue for ages, while their friends get their next pop.

That is a different problem happening when there is a low population doing scenarios. This thread is only for the time where most players are doing scenarios - weekend event - where we usually get 3 to 4 scenarios simultaneously at FRI/SAT/SUN prime times (when no sieges or forts are happening).

[Bosli]

[...] To truly balance matches first and most important MM would need to form preset proper group compositions (kotbs-sm-asw/wh-wl-rp-am, bg-chosen-we-choppa-zeal-dok etc [...]

I disagree. Most 6man premades doing scenarios can beat most pug groups in a 1x6+6x1 vs. 12x1 even when everything is 2-2-2 simply because most players overall are not as good at teamplay and coordination with random players without voice chat compared to a premade group, even when it's without VC too. It should always prioritize to match premades against premades, same as in city siege queue.

[nocturnalguest]

[...] To truly balance matches first and most important MM would need to form preset proper group compositions (kotbs-sm-asw/wh-wl-rp-am, bg-chosen-we-choppa-zeal-dok etc [...]

I disagree. Most 6man premades doing scenarios can beat most pug groups in a 1x6+6x1 vs. 12x1 even when everything is 2-2-2 simply because most players overall are not as good at teamplay and coordination with random players without voice chat compared to a premade group, even when it's without VC too. It should always prioritize to match premades against premades, same as in city siege queue.

Fully pug group of kotbs-ib-slayer-slayer-rp-shield wp without comms but with decent enough gear and proper specs would absolutely beat the crap out of premade bo-bg-dps sham-sorc-sham-chalice dok on comms by default. You can disagree as much as you want but its just how game works. Group composition and synergy within it is absolute, top priority. Expanding it further to your example mentioned order pug group + 6 whatever will by default win 12v12 against mentioned destro group + whatever

[Bosli]

Fully pug group of kotbs-ib-slayer-slayer-rp-shield wp without comms but with decent enough gear and proper specs would absolutely beat the crap out of premade bo-bg-dps sham-sorc-sham-chalice dok on comms by default. You can disagree as much as you want but its just how game works. Group composition and synergy within it is absolute, top priority. Expanding it further to your example mentioned order pug group + 6 whatever will by default win 12v12 against mentioned destro group + whatever

The difference between premades and pugs is that premades are organized. I hope that far you can agree.

The groups you mentioned are specifically put like that by you because of their difference of coordination needed. Yes, double Slayers don't have to do a whole lot to work together. Yet, if that premade has decent coordination, they will just punt one Slayer to timestamp it in the air, or punt it's tank away and timestamp it. Half pressure gone, do the second Slayer with the next rotation.

Also, you speak like premades play weird group setups most of the time? No, they don't. They organize their premade to win, and go for a group setup which allows them to win. If you seriously think a good setup is everything you need to win against most premades, then you should play more weekend scenarios solo, or not in a premade that loses against pugs? I don't know how to help you mate.

[Sulorie]

[...] To truly balance matches first and most important MM would need to form preset proper group compositions (kotbs-sm-asw/wh-wl-rp-am, bg-chosen-we-choppa-zeal-dok etc [...]

I disagree. Most 6man premades doing scenarios can beat most pug groups in a 1x6+6x1 vs. 12x1 even when everything is 2-2-2 simply because most players overall are not as good at teamplay and coordination with random players without voice chat compared to a premade group, even when it's without VC too. It should always prioritize to match premades against premades, same as in city siege queue.

Fully pug group of kotbs-ib-slayer-slayer-rp-shield wp without comms but with decent enough gear and proper specs would absolutely beat the crap out of premade bo-bg-dps sham-sorc-sham-chalice dok on comms by default. You can disagree as much as you want but its just how game works. Group composition and synergy within it is absolute, top priority. Expanding it further to your example mentioned order pug group + 6 whatever will by default win 12v12 against mentioned destro group + whatever

Is the pug group able to assist or do they play like most pugs in SC?