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Marauder pull needs to be reined in

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Structured class balance suggestions belong in the Balance Proposal subforum. Class-related discussion in this section are considered as ongoing debates and ARE NOT reviewed for balance changes.
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Specialpatrol
Posts: 292

Marauder pull needs to be reined in

Post#1 » Wed Mar 29, 2023 10:00 am

There's a lot of glaring balance issues, that require attention - but the Marauder pull, Terrible Embrace, has apparently been knocked out of the ballpark.

For starters, it's based on the Marauder's strength value and only defendable by parry or block - which basically makes it undefendable against most of the squishiest Order classes (BW, AM, RP and, to a certain extent, Book WPs) - generally any class that doesn't have any parry or block. I'm fairly confident that this was never the intention of the ability.

It used to be based on intelligence - which a lot Marauder players complained about, hence the change to it being strength-based. However, I would make the argument that it being based on intelligence was not an oversight or an error, but actually intended, because it makes good sense:
- First off, both description, animation and icon reads and looks very much like a magic attack (apropos the somewhat silly determination to changing other abilities to match icons etc - "Vigilance" comes to mind).
- Secondly, and more importantly, it makes the ability mainly useful against dps-classes and tanks, which normally doesn't stack willpower and/or tons of disrupt - but on the other hand are tougher and/or have more getaway-tools available. So the ability works the best against "equals", so to speak - and harder against the softer targets.

Since the change to a strength-based check, I personally haven't defended any Marauder pull on my AM. Not a single one. And that change has been in effect for quite some time. My only hope is to break LoS, which is very situational at best and not even guaranteed to work. Otherwise it generally means getting pulled into a group of dedicated dps, followed by a knockdown - which in most cases equals instant death, unless you have a lot of assist available.

Another issue is the range check. It only checks at the beginning of the cast, which means you can't outrun it with, say, a use of Flee. More importantly, it also means that the casting Marauder can (and often do) start to run backwards while channeling to extend the pull distance. At one point I believe there was added a second range check at the end of channeling, exactly to counter this behavior - it boggles the mind why it was reverted. (As a side note, I believe all cast time abilities, which can be cast on the move, had this second check added - not sure if they have all been reverted as well, or if it's only TE. But if they have, it might be good idea to add those checks back to all these abilities.)

To sum up, all pulls are by default very strong abilities - and TE seems downright broken at the moment. I would therefore suggest one of the following:
1) Revert TE back to being Intelligence-based and restore the second range check at the end of channeling. (Ideally)
2) Revert TE back to being Intelligence-based without adding the second range check at the end of channeling.
3) Keep TE Strength-based, but add second range check at the end of channeling.

It of course stands to reason, that if there are similar issues with WL's Fetch, then those should be looked at as well.
APONYMOUS l WP l R40 l RR8X
BRAKEDOWN l KOTBS l R40 l RR8X
BOILING l BW l R40 l RR8X
PUFFED l SLY l R40 l RR8X
RHYTHM l AM l R40 l RR8X
EEWULL l DOK l R3X l RR4X

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Sinisterror
Posts: 838

Re: Marauder pull needs to be reined in

Post#2 » Wed Mar 29, 2023 10:27 am

Im posting this here, because cant do it in RoR Discord or Github. Shouldnt be this complicate to report things... Anyway Marauder Pulls me through land AND Attacks me(See Wsct icons) while in air. I have MUCH more videos like this from last 2 years. Bring back Engi/Magus pulling people from Keep or Fort walls and Fix This Mara pull pls.

https://imgur.com/a/w1TTXrA
"To clarify, me asking to developers to go test their own changes is not sign of toxicity or anger, but a sign of hope that the people punching in the numbers remain aware of potential consequences and test their own changes"-Teefz

User avatar
Akilinus
Posts: 430

Re: Marauder pull needs to be reined in

Post#3 » Wed Mar 29, 2023 10:37 am

https://github.com/WarEmu/WarBugs/issues/19771

Already reported the issue with pulls.
Kkomrade 80 Zealot Akilinuz 80 Chosen Zaiyer 80 Marauder
Kkomrades 80 Black Guard Sauer 80 Squig herder Nosler 80 Witch Elf Soniq 70 Shaman

User avatar
wachlarz
Posts: 798

Re: Marauder pull needs to be reined in

Post#4 » Wed Mar 29, 2023 1:56 pm

Specialpatrol wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 10:00 am There's a lot of glaring balance issues, that require attention - but the Marauder pull, Terrible Embrace, has apparently been knocked out of the ballpark.

For starters, it's based on the Marauder's strength value and only defendable by parry or block - which basically makes it undefendable against most of the squishiest Order classes (BW, AM, RP and, to a certain extent, Book WPs) - generally any class that doesn't have any parry or block. I'm fairly confident that this was never the intention of the ability.

It used to be based on intelligence - which a lot Marauder players complained about, hence the change to it being strength-based. However, I would make the argument that it being based on intelligence was not an oversight or an error, but actually intended, because it makes good sense:
- First off, both description, animation and icon reads and looks very much like a magic attack (apropos the somewhat silly determination to changing other abilities to match icons etc - "Vigilance" comes to mind).
- Secondly, and more importantly, it makes the ability mainly useful against dps-classes and tanks, which normally doesn't stack willpower and/or tons of disrupt - but on the other hand are tougher and/or have more getaway-tools available. So the ability works the best against "equals", so to speak - and harder against the softer targets.

Since the change to a strength-based check, I personally haven't defended any Marauder pull on my AM. Not a single one. And that change has been in effect for quite some time. My only hope is to break LoS, which is very situational at best and not even guaranteed to work. Otherwise it generally means getting pulled into a group of dedicated dps, followed by a knockdown - which in most cases equals instant death, unless you have a lot of assist available.

Another issue is the range check. It only checks at the beginning of the cast, which means you can't outrun it with, say, a use of Flee. More importantly, it also means that the casting Marauder can (and often do) start to run backwards while channeling to extend the pull distance. At one point I believe there was added a second range check at the end of channeling, exactly to counter this behavior - it boggles the mind why it was reverted. (As a side note, I believe all cast time abilities, which can be cast on the move, had this second check added - not sure if they have all been reverted as well, or if it's only TE. But if they have, it might be good idea to add those checks back to all these abilities.)

To sum up, all pulls are by default very strong abilities - and TE seems downright broken at the moment. I would therefore suggest one of the following:
1) Revert TE back to being Intelligence-based and restore the second range check at the end of channeling. (Ideally)
2) Revert TE back to being Intelligence-based without adding the second range check at the end of channeling.
3) Keep TE Strength-based, but add second range check at the end of channeling.

It of course stands to reason, that if there are similar issues with WL's Fetch, then those should be looked at as well.
i suggest make bw cast spells on str. U need to be strong in body to cast big hot ball of fire and dont be perma burned xd

Sofong
Posts: 554

Re: Marauder pull needs to be reined in

Post#5 » Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:17 pm

1) revert mara back to live version.

User avatar
Nameless
Posts: 1141

Re: Marauder pull needs to be reined in

Post#6 » Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:31 pm

Mara pull was intelligent based on purpose. The intend was not to grief the healers positioning but to help separating tank from guarded dps, dislocate mdps and so on.

Changing it to strength is somehow understandable but the skill badly need second range chech at the end cos it has abused quite hard. Bring back second check and the situation will be better.

But pull meta got too much buffs (sadly not for engi and maguses) while the lack of resolute defence leave half of the realm kinda defenseless. From my pov that single handedly killed small scale and now we got zerg surfing meta
Mostly harmless

K8P & Norn - guild Orz

Garamore
Posts: 397

Re: Marauder pull needs to be reined in

Post#7 » Wed Mar 29, 2023 7:32 pm

Mara pull killed small scale - lol at least thats a new complaint.
Garamore - Chosen Garamar - Marauder Garachop - Choppa Garamor - Slayer

Warband leader for Hand of Blood

https://www.twitch.tv/therealgaramore

User avatar
vanbuinen77
Posts: 222

Re: Marauder pull needs to be reined in

Post#8 » Wed Mar 29, 2023 8:05 pm

Remove all pulls.

Fixed
Malificatium-Magus
Malificatiiium-Chosen
Malificatiium-Shaman

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inoeth
Suspended
Posts: 513

Re: Marauder pull needs to be reined in

Post#9 » Wed Mar 29, 2023 8:54 pm

order crying getting more and more ridicolous...

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Uchoo
Posts: 391

Re: Marauder pull needs to be reined in

Post#10 » Wed Mar 29, 2023 9:32 pm

Well, you should probably know how the game checks Strength for avoidance first. "Undefendable" is not true, but you're not far from the truth.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... /image.png

Getting a reasonable amount of parry, even as a caster, isn't far-fetched. An IB gives you flat 25% parry.

Regardless, Mara pull is slightly bugged right now but the easiest way to counter it is to LoS, outrange, or interrupt. If you do get pulled as a healer, a simple aoe detaunt slightly before you land will save you in many cases.
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