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Tone down the Meta Procs

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Structured class balance suggestions belong in the Balance Proposal subforum. Class-related discussion in this section are considered as ongoing debates and ARE NOT reviewed for balance changes.
Ashoris
Posts: 346

Re: Tone down the Meta Procs

Post#51 » Wed Feb 21, 2024 2:02 pm

the simple solution for a fairer balance would also to adjust proc chance to a specific timeframe. it would also solve many balancing issues between channels non channels ... Dual wielder vs 2h DPS classes (who are not balanced between the realms).
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Zxul
Posts: 1393

Re: Tone down the Meta Procs

Post#52 » Wed Feb 21, 2024 3:17 pm

Its probably a good place to remind again that procs are very much mitigated by resists/armor- only thing which they aren't mitigated by is toughness, which most nontanks only have 200 or so of, or in other words even if procs were mitigated by toughness it wouldn't make much difference for most nontanks.

Only actual issue which popped up are specific aoe channels which hit 3 times per gcd, resulting in a large increase of a chance of proc going off.
what63 wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2024 1:49 pm before someone once again tries to pull out some argument about output magically going to end up too high, because it really won't as long as some basic math is being applied.)
Funny, lets do a basic math then. So how much dmg procs will do with scaling? Because of its "same dmg as currently only for bis everywhere rr80+", then what you are actually asking for is to nerf dmg on procs, while pretending that you ain't asking for a nerf. If from other hand procs will do for a mdps with 900 str same dmg as they do today, guess how much dmg they will do for a rr80+ bis mdps with 1050 str, 200+ melee power, and 40%+ crit.
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what63
Posts: 45

Re: Tone down the Meta Procs

Post#53 » Thu Feb 22, 2024 4:14 pm

Zxul wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2024 3:17 pm Its probably a good place to remind again that procs are very much mitigated by resists/armor- only thing which they aren't mitigated by is toughness, which most nontanks only have 200 or so of, or in other words even if procs were mitigated by toughness it wouldn't make much difference for most nontanks.

Only actual issue which popped up are specific aoe channels which hit 3 times per gcd, resulting in a large increase of a chance of proc going off.
what63 wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2024 1:49 pm before someone once again tries to pull out some argument about output magically going to end up too high, because it really won't as long as some basic math is being applied.)
Funny, lets do a basic math then. So how much dmg procs will do with scaling? Because of its "same dmg as currently only for bis everywhere rr80+", then what you are actually asking for is to nerf dmg on procs, while pretending that you ain't asking for a nerf. If from other hand procs will do for a mdps with 900 str same dmg as they do today, guess how much dmg they will do for a rr80+ bis mdps with 1050 str, 200+ melee power, and 40%+ crit.
I mean it's kinda self explanatory, a net nerf is very much the goal, absolutely no reason to even attempt to hide that, procs are flawed to the core. Less damage on the top end when hitting something deftard. Samey damage on the top end when hitting something soft. Less damage on the low end (when a tank/healer is the source of the proc going off). So pretty much reduce base>compensate with scaling, as pointed out, to the point where they function as expected on the top end, and well, just don't function for the variety of cheese we always see with strong procs and other forms of non-scaling damage.

And yes, that includes BW/Sorc ones. Career mechanic and everything just lumped straight in there, solves issues related to tactic sharing and everything in one go.

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dwyur
Posts: 86
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Re: Tone down the Meta Procs

Post#54 » Fri Feb 23, 2024 1:54 pm

The proc meta is clearly out of wack. No class that is ruling the kill board should have the majority of their damage come from procs off BW.
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Detangler
Posts: 988

Re: Tone down the Meta Procs

Post#55 » Fri Feb 23, 2024 2:58 pm

If nerfing proc meta also affects Witchbrew, I'm all for it.
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Tastykate
Posts: 18

Re: Tone down the Meta Procs

Post#56 » Fri Feb 23, 2024 5:07 pm

Detangler wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2024 2:58 pm If nerfing proc meta also affects Witchbrew, I'm all for it.
Indeed, Can't forget about Leonine Frenzy Proc...

Cimba
Posts: 376

Re: Tone down the Meta Procs

Post#57 » Sat Feb 24, 2024 5:53 pm

Tweaking the numbers on procs seems like a lazy solution. There are plenty of essentially useless skills and tactics. Better change some of these to be reliable counters to procs.

Just to throw some ideas out there. Introduce a debuff that prevents a character from triggering procs. Or a buff that prevents a player from receiving proc damage. While you're at it you could also add something that prevents friendly procs like like the rp or zealot blessings.

Of course that doesn't exclude changes to the proc buffs from always on to something more engaging.

Anyway just nerfing procs into oblivion like the last time they were meta seems like a wasted opportunity to add some depth to the gameplay.

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CyunUnderis
Posts: 487
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Re: Tone down the Meta Procs

Post#58 » Sat Feb 24, 2024 11:31 pm

Cimba wrote: Sat Feb 24, 2024 5:53 pm Tweaking the numbers on procs seems like a lazy solution. There are plenty of essentially useless skills and tactics. Better change some of these to be reliable counters to procs.

Just to throw some ideas out there. Introduce a debuff that prevents a character from triggering procs. Or a buff that prevents a player from receiving proc damage. While you're at it you could also add something that prevents friendly procs like like the rp or zealot blessings.

Of course that doesn't exclude changes to the proc buffs from always on to something more engaging.

Anyway just nerfing procs into oblivion like the last time they were meta seems like a wasted opportunity to add some depth to the gameplay.
Thanks for your input Cimba. This is indeed an interesting approach. At the moment, the only counters we found with my guildmates are heavy absorbs and interrupts (to prevent channels). By introducing news skills to prevent procs or by making procs a bit less passive (someone already talked about using them to boost damage/frequency during a laps of time and then procs are temporarily disabled), and with a rework of useless skills or tactics or even morales to introduce this news skills, we can kill two birds with one stone.

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Akalukz
Posts: 1588

Re: Tone down the Meta Procs

Post#59 » Sun Feb 25, 2024 1:05 pm

Maybe change them to only affect single target abilities. The fire and forget passiveness of these need to change.
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CyunUnderis
Posts: 487
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Re: Tone down the Meta Procs

Post#60 » Sun Feb 25, 2024 1:50 pm

Akalukz wrote: Sun Feb 25, 2024 1:05 pm Maybe change them to only affect single target abilities. The fire and forget passiveness of these need to change.
On my post, I focused mostly on RvR, but the problem is the same with single target channels in SC/6v6, especially with S/B DoK/WP. You can have a really good pressure in this game mode with the good setup.

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