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Restore feinted positioning and snap shot to WH

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salazarn
Posts: 68

Restore feinted positioning and snap shot to WH

Post#1 » Mon May 27, 2024 2:57 pm

It used to work this way.

Currently if you open on a shaman 99% he will just aoe knockback. This can't be disrupted even cos its a career ability for some reason.

Now hes almost certainly running at like 30% movespeed from you and you are 30% snared and knocked back.

Now he can just dot spam and enjoy free RR.

Even if you had 100% uptime on a shaman he'd still easily win by just detaunting and playing defensive but we don't even get that.

Give WH SOMETHING to do with the abusive goblin shenanigans that only WL can actually deal with. Feinted positioning with a 1min cd working on snapshot could be that.

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Ysaran
Posts: 1301

Re: Restore feinted positioning and snap shot to WH

Post#2 » Tue May 28, 2024 5:18 am

salazarn wrote: Mon May 27, 2024 2:57 pm Currently if you open on a shaman 99% he will just aoe knockback. This can't be disrupted even cos its a career ability for some reason.
What you wrote is just false. Eeeek! (that's the name of the skill) can be disrupted. Moroever, Shroud of Magnus makes you immune to it. Shorud of Magnus can also negate the DoT's that are already applied on you. Shorud of Magnus can negate M1 Gork Sayz Stop ffs (abilities negating Morale is unfair, like Rampage used to negate Mdps M1 was unfair). I really don't get how a WH can die against Shaman (either dps or not). When you are under 50% just use Shorud of Magnus and run away. Shaman has no gap closer and you are immune to everything tha shaman can cast for 7s. Shroud of Magnus basicly counter the whole class.
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salazarn
Posts: 68

Re: Restore feinted positioning and snap shot to WH

Post#3 » Tue May 28, 2024 1:07 pm

Ysaran wrote: Tue May 28, 2024 5:18 am
salazarn wrote: Mon May 27, 2024 2:57 pm Currently if you open on a shaman 99% he will just aoe knockback. This can't be disrupted even cos its a career ability for some reason.
What you wrote is just false. Eeeek! (that's the name of the skill) can be disrupted. Moroever, Shroud of Magnus makes you immune to it. Shorud of Magnus can also negate the DoT's that are already applied on you. Shorud of Magnus can negate M1 Gork Sayz Stop ffs (abilities negating Morale is unfair, like Rampage used to negate Mdps M1 was unfair). I really don't get how a WH can die against Shaman (either dps or not). When you are under 50% just use Shorud of Magnus and run away. Shaman has no gap closer and you are immune to everything tha shaman can cast for 7s. Shroud of Magnus basicly counter the whole class.

How does a WH ever catch sham without insta popping sanc oil and snare removal for two gobals? That means he cannot then use magnus after for 60s

Also in what world does a WH not use stealth to open on a shaman, giving it 30s cd meaning he can't then use it to escape with shroud.

And 3 dots from a shaman basically kills a wh. Dead in 3 globals

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Ysaran
Posts: 1301

Re: Restore feinted positioning and snap shot to WH

Post#4 » Tue May 28, 2024 1:33 pm

salazarn wrote: Tue May 28, 2024 1:07 pm
Ysaran wrote: Tue May 28, 2024 5:18 am
salazarn wrote: Mon May 27, 2024 2:57 pm Currently if you open on a shaman 99% he will just aoe knockback. This can't be disrupted even cos its a career ability for some reason.
What you wrote is just false. Eeeek! (that's the name of the skill) can be disrupted. Moroever, Shroud of Magnus makes you immune to it. Shorud of Magnus can also negate the DoT's that are already applied on you. Shorud of Magnus can negate M1 Gork Sayz Stop ffs (abilities negating Morale is unfair, like Rampage used to negate Mdps M1 was unfair). I really don't get how a WH can die against Shaman (either dps or not). When you are under 50% just use Shorud of Magnus and run away. Shaman has no gap closer and you are immune to everything tha shaman can cast for 7s. Shroud of Magnus basicly counter the whole class.

How does a WH ever catch sham without insta popping sanc oil and snare removal for two gobals? That means he cannot then use magnus after for 60s

Also in what world does a WH not use stealth to open on a shaman, giving it 30s cd meaning he can't then use it to escape with shroud.

And 3 dots from a shaman basically kills a wh. Dead in 3 globals
3 DoTs kill a WH only if he has 7k hp. If you have double healing pots and absorb pots a Shaman can't kill you. With 1000 int (and most Shamans can hardly reach it with BiS gear, int pot and Get'n Smarter) Life Leaka deal roughly 1500 in 15s. Same for Get'n Smarter. While Bleed Fer Me deals 2400 in 24s. How can you get killed? I mean, just run away and use pots when you are low. Am I missing something? After 15s you have lost 4500 hp. Even considering the possible crits you you reach just above 7000 damage in 15s.
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Panzer80
Posts: 146

Re: Restore feinted positioning and snap shot to WH

Post#5 » Tue May 28, 2024 5:05 pm

Ysaran wrote: Tue May 28, 2024 1:33 pm
salazarn wrote: Tue May 28, 2024 1:07 pm
Ysaran wrote: Tue May 28, 2024 5:18 am

What you wrote is just false. Eeeek! (that's the name of the skill) can be disrupted. Moroever, Shroud of Magnus makes you immune to it. Shorud of Magnus can also negate the DoT's that are already applied on you. Shorud of Magnus can negate M1 Gork Sayz Stop ffs (abilities negating Morale is unfair, like Rampage used to negate Mdps M1 was unfair). I really don't get how a WH can die against Shaman (either dps or not). When you are under 50% just use Shorud of Magnus and run away. Shaman has no gap closer and you are immune to everything tha shaman can cast for 7s. Shroud of Magnus basicly counter the whole class.

How does a WH ever catch sham without insta popping sanc oil and snare removal for two gobals? That means he cannot then use magnus after for 60s

Also in what world does a WH not use stealth to open on a shaman, giving it 30s cd meaning he can't then use it to escape with shroud.

And 3 dots from a shaman basically kills a wh. Dead in 3 globals
3 DoTs kill a WH only if he has 7k hp. If you have double healing pots and absorb pots a Shaman can't kill you. With 1000 int (and most Shamans can hardly reach it with BiS gear, int pot and Get'n Smarter) Life Leaka deal roughly 1500 in 15s. Same for Get'n Smarter. While Bleed Fer Me deals 2400 in 24s. How can you get killed? I mean, just run away and use pots when you are low. Am I missing something? After 15s you have lost 4500 hp. Even considering the possible crits you you reach just above 7000 damage in 15s.
I'm sorry, but you just aren't objective if you're arguing that WH is unfair vs Shaman. You are also conflating fleeing the fight with getting a potential kill. I don't see anyone arguing that a WH can't sanctified oil, triple pot, and stealth away ending the fight... Why would you even argue that?
Nihrandil [SM] 84, Arendollus [WL] 83, Caelroran [SW] 56, Thaler [WH] 83, Tionac [AM] 54, Hocke [Kotbs] 51
Gilgamash [BO] 82, Kaylor [Mara] 82, Gobsmack [Sham] 63 Jockitch [SH] 55

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Ysaran
Posts: 1301

Re: Restore feinted positioning and snap shot to WH

Post#6 » Tue May 28, 2024 5:38 pm

Panzer80 wrote: Tue May 28, 2024 5:05 pm
Ysaran wrote: Tue May 28, 2024 1:33 pm
salazarn wrote: Tue May 28, 2024 1:07 pm


How does a WH ever catch sham without insta popping sanc oil and snare removal for two gobals? That means he cannot then use magnus after for 60s

Also in what world does a WH not use stealth to open on a shaman, giving it 30s cd meaning he can't then use it to escape with shroud.

And 3 dots from a shaman basically kills a wh. Dead in 3 globals
3 DoTs kill a WH only if he has 7k hp. If you have double healing pots and absorb pots a Shaman can't kill you. With 1000 int (and most Shamans can hardly reach it with BiS gear, int pot and Get'n Smarter) Life Leaka deal roughly 1500 in 15s. Same for Get'n Smarter. While Bleed Fer Me deals 2400 in 24s. How can you get killed? I mean, just run away and use pots when you are low. Am I missing something? After 15s you have lost 4500 hp. Even considering the possible crits you you reach just above 7000 damage in 15s.
I'm sorry, but you just aren't objective if you're arguing that WH is unfair vs Shaman. You are also conflating fleeing the fight with getting a potential kill. I don't see anyone arguing that a WH can't sanctified oil, triple pot, and stealth away ending the fight... Why would you even argue that?
DPS shaman can't kill tanks, they are too though. Too many hp, shield wall, absorb and so on. DPS shaman can't kill healers since DPS shaman doesn't have neither heal debuff or significant burst. But DPS shaman is very good against Slayers and, in general, ranged DPS. WL is a hard counter to shaman (both heal and dps), too much mobility and damage. WH is fifty-fifty. If I Inc the WH then he can just stealth and run. If the WH Inc me then it depends if I make I mistake or not. Either way if the WH decides to flee a shaman can't reach him. Shaman have no gap closer

Every DPS have some hard counter. A class that unless the enemy player makes a big mistake then can't be defeated. Some times your only option is to run. There is no shame in that.

WH is not unfair against Shaman. I'm only pointing out two things here. First, what the OP wrote is falso. Second, if a WH die against a Shaman is because he picked the wrong battle.
Zputadenti

salazarn
Posts: 68

Re: Restore feinted positioning and snap shot to WH

Post#7 » Wed May 29, 2024 1:52 pm

Ysaran wrote: Tue May 28, 2024 5:38 pm
Panzer80 wrote: Tue May 28, 2024 5:05 pm
Ysaran wrote: Tue May 28, 2024 1:33 pm

3 DoTs kill a WH only if he has 7k hp. If you have double healing pots and absorb pots a Shaman can't kill you. With 1000 int (and most Shamans can hardly reach it with BiS gear, int pot and Get'n Smarter) Life Leaka deal roughly 1500 in 15s. Same for Get'n Smarter. While Bleed Fer Me deals 2400 in 24s. How can you get killed? I mean, just run away and use pots when you are low. Am I missing something? After 15s you have lost 4500 hp. Even considering the possible crits you you reach just above 7000 damage in 15s.
I'm sorry, but you just aren't objective if you're arguing that WH is unfair vs Shaman. You are also conflating fleeing the fight with getting a potential kill. I don't see anyone arguing that a WH can't sanctified oil, triple pot, and stealth away ending the fight... Why would you even argue that?
DPS shaman can't kill tanks, they are too though. Too many hp, shield wall, absorb and so on. DPS shaman can't kill healers since DPS shaman doesn't have neither heal debuff or significant burst. But DPS shaman is very good against Slayers and, in general, ranged DPS. WL is a hard counter to shaman (both heal and dps), too much mobility and damage. WH is fifty-fifty. If I Inc the WH then he can just stealth and run. If the WH Inc me then it depends if I make I mistake or not. Either way if the WH decides to flee a shaman can't reach him. Shaman have no gap closer

Every DPS have some hard counter. A class that unless the enemy player makes a big mistake then can't be defeated. Some times your only option is to run. There is no shame in that.

WH is not unfair against Shaman. I'm only pointing out two things here. First, what the OP wrote is falso. Second, if a WH die against a Shaman is because he picked the wrong battle.
I would say WH will lose 100% of the time against a shaman assuming he can press his movement keys and detaunt.

salazarn
Posts: 68

Re: Restore feinted positioning and snap shot to WH

Post#8 » Wed May 29, 2024 2:05 pm

salazarn wrote: Wed May 29, 2024 1:52 pm
Ysaran wrote: Tue May 28, 2024 5:38 pm
Panzer80 wrote: Tue May 28, 2024 5:05 pm

I'm sorry, but you just aren't objective if you're arguing that WH is unfair vs Shaman. You are also conflating fleeing the fight with getting a potential kill. I don't see anyone arguing that a WH can't sanctified oil, triple pot, and stealth away ending the fight... Why would you even argue that?
DPS shaman can't kill tanks, they are too though. Too many hp, shield wall, absorb and so on. DPS shaman can't kill healers since DPS shaman doesn't have neither heal debuff or significant burst. But DPS shaman is very good against Slayers and, in general, ranged DPS. WL is a hard counter to shaman (both heal and dps), too much mobility and damage. WH is fifty-fifty. If I Inc the WH then he can just stealth and run. If the WH Inc me then it depends if I make I mistake or not. Either way if the WH decides to flee a shaman can't reach him. Shaman have no gap closer

Every DPS have some hard counter. A class that unless the enemy player makes a big mistake then can't be defeated. Some times your only option is to run. There is no shame in that.

WH is not unfair against Shaman. I'm only pointing out two things here. First, what the OP wrote is falso. Second, if a WH die against a Shaman is because he picked the wrong battle.
I would say WH will lose 100% of the time against a shaman assuming he can press his movement keys and detaunt.

You do get nice dmg if u actually take the time to cast it and a healing debuff if u spec it but i guess OP toughness hot is too broken to pass up.

As for WL mabe u lose its hard to say. But a WL is a weird roamer as a squishy melee character thats way higher risk than shaman dot tabbers.

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salazarn
Posts: 68

Re: Restore feinted positioning and snap shot to WH

Post#9 » Wed May 29, 2024 2:09 pm

salazarn wrote: Wed May 29, 2024 2:05 pm
salazarn wrote: Wed May 29, 2024 1:52 pm
Ysaran wrote: Tue May 28, 2024 5:38 pm

DPS shaman can't kill tanks, they are too though. Too many hp, shield wall, absorb and so on. DPS shaman can't kill healers since DPS shaman doesn't have neither heal debuff or significant burst. But DPS shaman is very good against Slayers and, in general, ranged DPS. WL is a hard counter to shaman (both heal and dps), too much mobility and damage. WH is fifty-fifty. If I Inc the WH then he can just stealth and run. If the WH Inc me then it depends if I make I mistake or not. Either way if the WH decides to flee a shaman can't reach him. Shaman have no gap closer

Every DPS have some hard counter. A class that unless the enemy player makes a big mistake then can't be defeated. Some times your only option is to run. There is no shame in that.

WH is not unfair against Shaman. I'm only pointing out two things here. First, what the OP wrote is falso. Second, if a WH die against a Shaman is because he picked the wrong battle.
I would say WH will lose 80% of the time against a shaman assuming he can press his movement keys and detaunt.

You do get nice dmg if u actually take the time to cast it and a healing debuff if u spec it but i guess OP toughness hot is too broken to pass up.

As for WL mabe u lose its hard to say. But a WL is a weird roamer as a squishy melee character thats way higher risk than shaman dot tabbers.

Faction69
Posts: 80

Re: Restore feinted positioning and snap shot to WH

Post#10 » Wed May 29, 2024 7:40 pm

Ysaran wrote: Tue May 28, 2024 5:18 am
salazarn wrote: Mon May 27, 2024 2:57 pm Currently if you open on a shaman 99% he will just aoe knockback. This can't be disrupted even cos its a career ability for some reason.
What you wrote is just false. Eeeek! (that's the name of the skill) can be disrupted. Moroever, Shroud of Magnus makes you immune to it. Shorud of Magnus can also negate the DoT's that are already applied on you. Shorud of Magnus can negate M1 Gork Sayz Stop ffs (abilities negating Morale is unfair, like Rampage used to negate Mdps M1 was unfair). I really don't get how a WH can die against Shaman (either dps or not). When you are under 50% just use Shorud of Magnus and run away. Shaman has no gap closer and you are immune to everything tha shaman can cast for 7s. Shroud of Magnus basicly counter the whole class.
If a WH uses Shroud of Magnus against a shaman, then they should either lose the fight automatically, or be forced to run away. You cannot stay on a shaman without using the cooldown (which is shared) on Sanctified Oil, unless they get horribly unlucky and somehow don't get a Run Away proc.

You are essentially just complaining about the fact that if a WH doesn't want to fight you, he can just run away. But if they 'countered the whole class' they'd be killing you not running away.

In any fight where the WH actually tries to kill the shaman, he has about a 10 second window to do so. He will be knocked back on the opener (because you cannot use Shroud of Magnus if you actually plan to kill a good shaman, as stated above), will have to use slow break+Sanctified Oil to get back on the shaman, then he has about 6 or 7 seconds to burst the shaman to death before he autoloses to the next Run Away proc.

If the shaman just detaunts while waiting for his 10 second cooldown speed tactic proc to come back up and uses cleanse on cooldown if the WH is BAL spec (you can cleanse BAL which otherwise does like 4k dmg), he pretty much can't lose. The fight is massively in the shaman's favour but most of them luckily don't play it correctly.

Also I get knocked back by shamans and archmages through magic immunity all the time on both my WE and WH. So I don't even buy this idea that you can just immune the knockback, though would need to test to be 100% sure. In practical solo gameplay you cannot get away with using shroud of magnus very often except to restealth because in any fight where you intend to actually fight, you need your only gap closer. The only class you can use it against and get away with it is a solo sorc. Against Magus and Shaman popping it is an autolose if they're any good bc it means you no longer have a gap closer for the rest of the fight.

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