Duel Tournament - Open: June 11th

[Dabbart]

TIme limits are hard. Wtf do you do for a Draw in a Tournament? If we did a Round-Robin it would be fine. 1 point for a win, .5 for a draw.

You can't resead just cause 2 people can't fight to a conclusion. I agree, that certain handicaps need to be in place for healers to participate in Duelz. Until those are sorted, I doubt they will be included again. But we had tanks fighting to a stalemate.

I don't care about the viability of a kiting/defensive/healing spec. This is a Dueling Event. We could always include some draconian rule that a draw equals a double loss. The participants need to be prepared to come to some agreement on abilities/movement to restrict so that we can actually have a conclusion. You need to have a plan B. Or we need to further restrict classes for duel tournaments. Which would be unfortunate, but we can't have 10+min on each kill(if it happens) in a tournament with 20 people.

I think if we find the right spot, with clear boundaries it can work.

Thanks to all who came out.

[peterthepan3]

I don't care about the viability of a kiting/defensive/healing spec. This is a Dueling Event.

I disagree: it doesn't matter HOW you duel, as the only thing that matters is the end result. As a 2H BG, you will not just stand toe-to-toe against a KOTBS: you HAVE to kite, to get your heal off uninterrupted, or you will simply LOSE against a good one. I was actually surprised at the amount of hate/moaning due to using a perfectly valid tactic that noone had a problem with on live, especially given that DPS healers were allowed to join! Anyway I digress: I had a lot of fun, and it was a good event

Tactics such as kiting/defensive are inherent and mandatory for some classes/specs.

[Dabbart]

I don't care about the viability of a kiting/defensive/healing spec. This is a Dueling Event.

I disagree: it doesn't matter HOW you duel, as the only thing that matters is the end result. As a 2H BG, you will not just stand toe-to-toe against a KOTBS: you HAVE to kite, to get your heal off uninterrupted, or you will simply LOSE against a good one. I was actually surprised at the amount of hate/moaning due to using a perfectly valid tactic that noone had a problem with on live, especially given that DPS healers were allowed to join! Anyway I digress: I had a lot of fun, and it was a good event

Tactics such as kiting/defensive are inherent and mandatory for some classes/specs.

And yet the point never seemed to be received. No one gives a **** if it works or not. it is A, boring to watch, and B, in that circumstance forced 2 seperate draws. For the sake of a tournament, I don't care if you can successfully survive enternally. We are trying to find a winner. I don't care about "but if I don't then I'll lose!"

My issue with it, was that as you said. The ONLY way the BG didn't die was to Kite/reheal. At no point was the knight ever taken below 85% health, nor would he of ever been. In that case, if we had a Judge the BG would of lost. The knight brought him to a lower health, and the BG had to run in order to survive. Ofc, if I try to tell someone who didn't die that they lost, they will rage the **** out.

Also, wtf is up with people freaking out over the peanut gallery? Don't get mad at us cause we aren't entertained. The same freedoms that apply to you and your playstyle/build apply to our critique of it. If you don't like it, don't listen.

At the end of the day, if we have this kind of issue with BGs in general, then they might get added to the ban list for certain tournaments. Draws are TERRIBLE for a tournament. How the feck are we supposed to advance to the next round? Not to mention the amount of Freaking Time it took. Hey, the fight takes as long as it takes. But after both contestants have had ample oppertunity to pop M4, something has to give.

So please. Offer some advice. Wtf do we do about draws/unkillables? No. Reseeding isn't an option, since it just delays the issue. And I refuse to have another tie in a tournie simply because someone wants to Kite for an hour rather than admit they can't win.

Edit: The Wp/BG fight was a true draw btw. In that case, if it had been me, I would of made a comprimise about certain abilities we should each ban ourselves from using. But that's me.

Edit 2: it does matter "How" you duel. Hence why we have Rules.

[Twyxx]

Side note... Grats to Overlord Rioz on his win :>

[Dabbart]

Aye, much gratz. Rioz beat everyone handily.

And yez. I apologize. I keep zpelling his name with an S for zome ztrange reazon. I will try my bezt to break myzelf from that horrendouz habit.

Awesome to zee zomeone elze kill dirtyz. That damn Chozen has far too big a head for hiz zhoulderz...

Long Live The rioZ

Also, I feel free to post up any specific types or organization of Duelz you guys would like to have. Or what you think "fair" balancing would be/take for some classes to be able to take part. Do the AM/RP/Shaman/Zealots out there think that they could handle fighting in a "cage"? What Ruleset would you like/dislike to see?

[Ridduk]

A dps AM won? shocking...

[peterthepan3]

I don't care about the viability of a kiting/defensive/healing spec. This is a Dueling Event.

I disagree: it doesn't matter HOW you duel, as the only thing that matters is the end result. As a 2H BG, you will not just stand toe-to-toe against a KOTBS: you HAVE to kite, to get your heal off uninterrupted, or you will simply LOSE against a good one. I was actually surprised at the amount of hate/moaning due to using a perfectly valid tactic that noone had a problem with on live, especially given that DPS healers were allowed to join! Anyway I digress: I had a lot of fun, and it was a good event

Tactics such as kiting/defensive are inherent and mandatory for some classes/specs.

And yet the point never seemed to be received. No one gives a **** if it works or not. it is A, boring to watch, and B, in that circumstance forced 2 seperate draws. For the sake of a tournament, I don't care if you can successfully survive enternally. We are trying to find a winner. I don't care about "but if I don't then I'll lose!"

My issue with it, was that as you said. The ONLY way the BG didn't die was to Kite/reheal. At no point was the knight ever taken below 85% health, nor would he of ever been. In that case, if we had a Judge the BG would of lost. The knight brought him to a lower health, and the BG had to run in order to survive. Ofc, if I try to tell someone who didn't die that they lost, they will rage the **** out.

Also, wtf is up with people freaking out over the peanut gallery? Don't get mad at us cause we aren't entertained. The same freedoms that apply to you and your playstyle/build apply to our critique of it. If you don't like it, don't listen.

At the end of the day, if we have this kind of issue with BGs in general, then they might get added to the ban list for certain tournaments. Draws are TERRIBLE for a tournament. How the feck are we supposed to advance to the next round? Not to mention the amount of Freaking Time it took. Hey, the fight takes as long as it takes. But after both contestants have had ample oppertunity to pop M4, something has to give.

So please. Offer some advice. Wtf do we do about draws/unkillables? No. Reseeding isn't an option, since it just delays the issue. And I refuse to have another tie in a tournie simply because someone wants to Kite for an hour rather than admit they can't win.

Edit: The Wp/BG fight was a true draw btw. In that case, if it had been me, I would of made a comprimise about certain abilities we should each ban ourselves from using. But that's me.

Edit 2: it does matter "How" you duel. Hence why we have Rules.

1) A dueling tournament doesn't necessitate spectacular viewing/aesthetically pleasing battle. It's two people pitted against eachother using whatever they have to survive. As per the rules of this tournament as put forward by DirtyZ, the BG conformed to everything and did nothing out of the wrong. If you are seriously saying that 'because the KOTBS had 80% health' equates to a win, then I wonder if you hold the same view with choppas who can heal back from 2% to full? DPS DOKs? Ironbreakers also have the same self-heal as the BG, and are reliant on it in duels - always were, and always have been. Just because you don't find the duel entertaining (the same could be said about a lot of duels) doesn't mean that counts as a valid lens through which to criticise/impose restrictions.

2) I reiterate: kiting is a valid tactic in duels: it's how you deal with an IB's/BG's self-heal by not letting them attack you and not attacking them (noone seemed to use this); it's how you ignore 7 seconds of antiarmor spam from a WH/WE; it's how you ignore Slayer's rampage - etc. Nothing was said explicitly about kiting on the rules, and so imposing any further restrictions because of a player's inability to deal with kiting is unjustified.

3) Not mad, just amazed me how few people seem to know how a BG works. I haven't played it for 7 months, literally geared it up to 40 and got parry jewels that night. If you're going 2h with a bg, losing access to your 5 second KD, you have to think of alternative methods to win. If it causes so much of an uproar I'll just bring the magus!

4) Why would you ban a BG when you are allowing DPS healers? Makes no sense. The self-heal component can be dealt with relatively easy (ask Serial from my guild, or Volgograd the IB). The only issue was with the fights vs DPS healers: against other melee/tanks (provided both weren't defensive/hp regen), it was a nonissue.

Dealing with draws is a tricky issue, I admit, but will be an inherent problem in the open tournaments. In all other tournaments thus far (ranged and melee) there wasn't such a problem, but when you have defensive tanks dueling dps healers then draws WILL be inevitable. I am ALL for imposing some restrictions when such an encounter occurs, i.e. DPS Healer vs Tank, but if these restrictions effectively neuter one of the classes just to appease the masses then I am against that.

I would like to hear what DirtyZ has to say on the matter! I don't want to descend further into an argument, but felt I had to argue that point.

PS: When is twyxx gonna come duel on her wl? =P I want to see some guardian WLs!

[Twyxx]

^i haven't dueled since the t2 dayz =P

[Dabbart]

Peter. You really need to pull the stick out of your ass bro.

1, The "valid lens through which to impose restrictions or criticisms" is determined by those organizing the events. Argue all you want, but Duels that don't end are not helpful or entertaining. There are a lot more people trying to compete than just you. We had 3 people pull out and forfeit due to how long it took.

2, no one has ever said that the BG broke the rules. No one has ever said that it was cheap, or wrong, or bad, or not valid. YOu seem to REALLY want to try and prove that it is "Ok" for a BG to run that tactic. I have no problem with it myself, EXCEPT FOR IN A DUEL TOURNAMENT. And as said about 20k times so far, we will continue to alter and tweak the rules and set-up based upon the issues we run across. The Draws were a MAJOR issue. So we are working on ways to deal with them. Nothing personal against you or your guild. Stop freaking out.

3, Yes you where mad. Telling people that "You have no right to criticize how I play! I am allowed to play any spec I want!" And then refusing to fight the Knight anymore is "getting mad". We have every right to say what we want. No one insulted you personally, or said the BG sucked. Or that Fusion is a terrible guild. We where bored. And commenting to each other. Stop caring what random people think. Edit: And to this point, multiples of us were telling you to just fight. If it took awhile so be it. We where gonna keep going with the tournie on the side as we had been, till you stopped got mad and then left to respec or some ****.

4, We don't allow healers. This was an Open Duel, specifically so that we could see what classes would have MAJOR issues in a tournament. The RP was allowed in the ranged tornie ONLY because Airplane managed to kill him BEFORE the tournie started. afterwards, it was agreed no healers of any kind in the Ranged tournie, and no healers of any kind in the Melee tournie. This has been estabished and agreed on. So wtf are you talking about? This was the only tournament where Am/DoK/WP/Shaman has been allowed, and unless we run a DPS Healer tournie, they wont be allowed again most likely.

You always feel you have to argue the point. One of the reasons I like you so much Peterpan3. But You have 0 thoughts on how to solve the issue. So honestly, your points count for ****. Highly doubtful we will EVER put forth another open dueling tournie. But the issue with the BG STARTED when he dueled a KNIGHT.

SO, in a Melee tournie, we will have the exact same issue potentially. How can we fix it? If we can't, then we will HAVE to input a rule in order to alleviate it. Which would mean either a Judge tells someone who didn't die that they lost arbitrarily(which you already proved will lead to RAGE), or Both Contestants Lose. I don't see how else we can deal with Draws in a single elimination tournie.

Only other solution, is to do a Round Robin tournie, where everyone fights everyone else, 1 point for a win, .5 for a draw. At the end, the person with the highest points total wins any tie is dealt with via a Duel. But that will literally take hours and hours to get through.

So I repeat. If you have an answer, PLEASE offer it up. If you have solutions to the issue we faced, or have thought of NEW issues we haven't faced yet. Post em up. Just know, that I don't give a crap about the validation of tactics, classes, or what you personnally want. If you don't have a solution, then don't expect it to go your way...


Edit: I am also thinking of talking to dirtyz about a rule for contestants whom stop dueling... This annoyed me yesterday, yea I get it. You feel bad cause the crowd is talkin ****. But your the own who brought a class/tactic that was going to do this. If you can't handle the public turn off chat. You don't get to waste MORE of our time just so you can feel better via "defending" yourself in chat. You're in a duel/fight. Calling time/stop so I can bark at people is retarded. And if you both feel that neither can win, then isn't that admitting that you both lost? It's all about perspective on that point.

[peterthepan3]

Peter. You really need to pull the stick out of your ass bro.

1, The "valid lens through which to impose restrictions or criticisms" is determined by those organizing the events. Argue all you want, but Duels that don't end are not helpful or entertaining. There are a lot more people trying to compete than just you. We had 3 people pull out and forfeit due to how long it took.

2, no one has ever said that the BG broke the rules. No one has ever said that it was cheap, or wrong, or bad, or not valid. YOu seem to REALLY want to try and prove that it is "Ok" for a BG to run that tactic. I have no problem with it myself, EXCEPT FOR IN A DUEL TOURNAMENT. And as said about 20k times so far, we will continue to alter and tweak the rules and set-up based upon the issues we run across. The Draws were a MAJOR issue. So we are working on ways to deal with them. Nothing personal against you or your guild. Stop freaking out.

3, Yes you where mad. Telling people that "You have no right to criticize how I play! I am allowed to play any spec I want!" And then refusing to fight the Knight anymore is "getting mad". We have every right to say what we want. No one insulted you personally, or said the BG sucked. Or that Fusion is a terrible guild. We where bored. And commenting to each other. Stop caring what random people think. Edit: And to this point, multiples of us were telling you to just fight. If it took awhile so be it. We where gonna keep going with the tournie on the side as we had been, till you stopped got mad and then left to respec or some ****.

4, We don't allow healers. This was an Open Duel, specifically so that we could see what classes would have MAJOR issues in a tournament. The RP was allowed in the ranged tornie ONLY because Airplane managed to kill him BEFORE the tournie started. afterwards, it was agreed no healers of any kind in the Ranged tournie, and no healers of any kind in the Melee tournie. This has been estabished and agreed on. So wtf are you talking about? This was the only tournament where Am/DoK/WP/Shaman has been allowed, and unless we run a DPS Healer tournie, they wont be allowed again most likely.

You always feel you have to argue the point. One of the reasons I like you so much Peterpan3. But You have 0 thoughts on how to solve the issue. So honestly, your points count for ****. Highly doubtful we will EVER put forth another open dueling tournie. But the issue with the BG STARTED when he dueled a KNIGHT.

SO, in a Melee tournie, we will have the exact same issue potentially. How can we fix it? If we can't, then we will HAVE to input a rule in order to alleviate it. Which would mean either a Judge tells someone who didn't die that they lost arbitrarily(which you already proved will lead to RAGE), or Both Contestants Lose. I don't see how else we can deal with Draws in a single elimination tournie.

Only other solution, is to do a Round Robin tournie, where everyone fights everyone else, 1 point for a win, .5 for a draw. At the end, the person with the highest points total wins any tie is dealt with via a Duel. But that will literally take hours and hours to get through.

So I repeat. If you have an answer, PLEASE offer it up. If you have solutions to the issue we faced, or have thought of NEW issues we haven't faced yet. Post em up. Just know, that I don't give a crap about the validation of tactics, classes, or what you personnally want. If you don't have a solution, then don't expect it to go your way...


Edit: I am also thinking of talking to dirtyz about a rule for contestants whom stop dueling... This annoyed me yesterday, yea I get it. You feel bad cause the crowd is talkin ****. But your the own who brought a class/tactic that was going to do this. If you can't handle the public turn off chat. You don't get to waste MORE of our time just so you can feel better via "defending" yourself in chat. You're in a duel/fight. Calling time/stop so I can bark at people is retarded. And if you both feel that neither can win, then isn't that admitting that you both lost? It's all about perspective on that point.

Sorry but no. All I heard was: 'this isn't dueling/omg when will this end/this is boring/ban him from dueling'. I've been dueling for 5/6 years and it is 90% of what I did on live - I know of what I speak. I will not have my dueling style criticized if I see that the criticism is unwarranted.

1) No time limit was given. If you're organising an open tourney with DPS healers, YOU SHOULD EXPECT FOR DUELS TO LAST FOR ETERNITY.

2) I respec'd to duel Rememberme because respeccing is allowed, is it not? Sorry for taking 5minutes! (would be nice to have career trainers on standby during these events =P )

3) It's an open tourney. If you allow DPS healers, then there ought to be no problem with defensive heal tanks.

4) I minded my own until about 4 different people (all of whom were knocked out of the tournament/weren't participating?) started commenting on the tactic. Also I was fighting Hurgon for a good hour: is it my fault that I was given this opponent, both of us being defensive heal tanks? This is an inherent problem to random open tournaments.


Anyway let's refrain from escalating this, shall we? I've said my peace. I await Dirtyz's comments regarding this as he is the organiser of these events.