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peterthepan3
Posts: 6509

Re: Reintroductions and reflections.

Post#371 » Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:43 pm

mika9713 wrote: Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:53 am Hello and welcome back
I join for the WL it is more than time to do something, is it normal that a WL can tank much more than a tank and do as much deguat? I play fury, I spend a lot of time trying to mix stuff, ect to try at least to finish a wl is impossible, it spoils the pleasure of playing and cut any desire, a WL can kill 3- 4 people in a row and he leaves barely alive, there is a big problem with the class.
Sounds like an argument stemming from a solo and/or unorganised environment. A White Lion can kill 3/4 people solo? Well so can a Magus, or a DPS AM. Has no bearing on their potency within a group/WB environment, and balance is done around group+ encounters.
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dur3al
Posts: 251

Re: Reintroductions and reflections.

Post#372 » Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:45 pm

Telen wrote: Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:17 pm Reductio ad absurdum
Somalia is corrupt so RoR should be balanced to 1.4.8

You're using this wrong.. Somalia is comparable in the sense that the people in charge can do & change things out of their own will - which is not necessarily the will of the majority.

Regarding balance, he is arguing that RoR should be balanced to 1.4.8 to THEN be balanced into something else (mildly or harshly). I've also said something about this earlier on this thread, read below:
Spoiler:
Discussion regarding dok/wp changes in Patchnotes 15/12/16.

dur3al wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2016 10:00 pm
Azarael wrote:Now we're getting into the tail wagging the dog.

All I read here is: thanks for all the free work you did resurrecting the game. We'll be nice to you if and when we feel like it, and you'd better be grateful for that, but you'd better not think you have any right to do what you want with the game, because it's about what we want and what we will tolerate, and our bars are set very low.

Absolutely vile. DoK/WP playing to concept is the price I ask, and I am not so much of a doormat that I will disregard all the time spent working on this project and allow that to be blocked by people who do not, in fact, work on the project, because muh nostalgia.

Really, I can't emphasise it enough. Vile. You benefit from free work. Why on earth do you think I'm going to have even the smallest of my actions constrained by traditionalism for traditionalism's sake? Get over it. I'll accept criticism for causing imbalance but I will not for one second accept being criticised simply for the act of having made a change. This project made it clear a while back that the aim is to make progress, not to allow you and yours to allow traditionalism and nostalgia to block everything you don't like.

You can save your responses as well, because I'm setting out how things are, and I'm sure as hell not interested in wasting any more of my breath against "muh nostalgia".
I'd like to give my 2 cents also on what Zumos/roadkill and Aza argument.

First of all, I think all of us players are grateful with all the efforts done by the staff to keep this server running. Because we enjoy playing this game. As it was pointed out a lot of times, we are not allowed to donate money to some-how help you guys, but I'm sure if we could, a lot of people would do it to support the project. With that being said, what we can effectively do to help is to actively report bugs when we find them and besides that, we can't do anything else besides play the game & try to be friendly and welcoming to the community in order to help it grow. Reminding us all the time how much effort is being done by the development team vs of the community seems to not be good to anyone as we all understand this, even if you believe some people don't.

Now comes the part where some confusion happens: When I first heard about Return of Reckoning, I was very happy since I did enjoy the game very much, but my first general impression I had, was that this project was intended to be what it says in the title, Return of Reckoning, as in Mythic Age of Reckoning which most of us in this community played.

Second big confusion comes when we're told that this is an Alpha server, and I'll quote from the
What you accept about this project before you start playing. thread:
Azarael wrote:2. This project is in its alpha stage, and alpha means bugs.

Alpha is not an "excuse". Alpha means Alpha. It means the server is not feature complete. It means you accept that bugs can and will occur. It means that you treat all things as being in flux, and nothing as permanent. It means that you understand and accept the possibility that progress on the server may be reset.
Reading this, I understand that I expect an incomplete game, with bugs, and that is fine, but nowhere in this makes us read that the game might be changed and take other directions of what we believe is the purpose of this project, which is to be a Return of Reckoning.

Now there is a new added point which reads:
Azarael wrote:4. The developers have the right to change anything they so choose, mechanically speaking, and to bear the consequences, in terms of player gain or loss, of bad decisions.

We are not Mythic. This isn't Age of Reckoning. We have the right to change anything related to the mechanics of the game. Anything.

Read that again. We have the right to change any mechanics, should we so wish. Will that always be a good idea? No. Will it always work out for the best? No. Will it sometimes work out for the best? Yes. Do we eventually hope that all our changes will be improvements from Mythic's state? Yes.
This is even furthering confusion, for example:

We understand the balancing of x or y class, we're glad things can be changed which were obviously broken in the live versions of the server. But having the WP/DoK changes in mind, they weren't with the balancing the class as main target in mind, they were brought mostly due to what the development team thought was a design mistake from the original game, and that the class should have a different role, and arguments were used such as lore and other several reasons. As Zumos explained, players never really bothered as much with the lore discrepancies, they just are happy and used to play the class for years and will take any such drastic change as negative.

This is what causes the most confusion because now can we really expect Return of Reckoning, or Not-Return of Reckoning?
How far are the changes in the design from the original game going to go? Out the top of my head if you followed the lore I guess Archmages should be as a strong damage dealer as any other sorcerers type in the game. Chaos shouldn't be allied with Greenskins because from the lore perspective, they simply can't. Can we expect live Reckoning version of Land of the Dead with all its items and item procs in the future? Or all of that will be re-designed? The bottom line is: How far are the changes going to go? You can't just change as you go along without a proper plan/direction that is agreed and shared with the player base in my opinion. In a new game you could do this without any problem, but here we players were expecting something like Return of Reckoning as the huge title says, but now not really?

Keep in mind, nowhere I'm saying you shouldn't or should do this or that, or that you should listen to the players before doing this or that, this is your project and you can do whatever you want, I'm not discussing this. But it wasn't told us beforehand at all that such things would occur, because then why would you use the title of a game if you're going to overhaul it?
If this was a complete new game from scratch we wouldn't mind at all, but for a lot of us the Mythic version was considered the final product, even with all its flaws, and that the majority of us enjoyed playing it, even with all its drawbacks - and with some small tweaks here and there would do the job regarding balancing, oRvR and even PvE to have an even better Reckoning.

My final thoughts is that this is lacking transparency and communication on what is the direction this project will take beforehand.
It should be stated that we (as players) will not have the same game as Mythic one (once this Alpha phase is out). That the intention is to take x, y, and z direction, and fundamentally change a, b & c. We are using Mythic's Return of Reckoning as a sort-of foundation for a new game.

Now a lot of players will feel like they've been cheated, where while we agreed with an Alpha phase with a lot of bugs, we would have the same game (or something very similar) that it was enjoyed from Mythic. But as things went along, sudden changes were done and all time and effort by players for that particular gameplay they wanted will not happen.

Basing your arguments on what Mythic intended to do and didn't do, or what developers intended at that time, or how effective or noneffective they were implementing stuff is all null. We must base how you envision this new game with what we had as a game, which was Age of Reckoning at its final stage.

This is the sort of thing we're no longer entertaining.

- wargrimnir

Continuing the discussion:

dur3al wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2016 11:50 pm
Natherul wrote:I can see where you are coming from with that, but it does not mean we should change our attitude on that matter. Also the vision of RoR is to make AoR the best it could have been with the potential the game had/has, to me when I joined that was pretty clear from day 1.
Yes but that's debatable isn't it? What is best for you maybe is not best for me? Even as all the while you hold the power to go along what you think its best, if you're not clear with the direction you plan to take - you'll always have an unhealthy relationship with your player-base, and you also need them after all this is still a game isn't it?

Being honest here, even though I don't generally care so much for the changes by themselves, when I started playing this I honestly did not know we would had such drastic changes in comparison with the live version, and changes that are what you guys think was a mistake done by the original developers of this game. I think everyone in a common sense scale can go along with some changes, but what is planned for the future? How about tovl stuff? City sieges and many other to-come features. Regarding balance, I've read from Azarael is that Chosens/Knights of the Blazing Sun are also into the pipeline for some big changes too, perhaps this should be more advised beforehand for the community to avoid such reactions and stress - and waste of energy because of it.

Same as above. Moderated at the same time.

- wargrimnir

Explain to us how it makes any sense to you to balance (change values and mechanics) of some class and/or skills when some of them are not even working properly? Wouldn't it make sense to first fix all of the broken skills to then apply change to them? Maybe some of the broken skills are part of the issue regarding some specs unavailability?

If the task was up to me, before I'd even think in anything balance-wise I'd first work into fixing every single skill & tactic in the game and then make a huge spreadsheet in which shows what were the AoR values and what are the current RoR values. Anyway, you get the idea hopefully.
Martyr's Square: Sync & Nerfedbuttons - enigma
Martyr's Square: Dureal & Method - Disrespect/It's Orz again
Badlands: Dureal & Alatheus - Exo
Karak-Norn: Sejanus - Blitz/Elementz

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GodlessCrom
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Re: Reintroductions and reflections.

Post#373 » Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:46 pm

Telen wrote: Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:17 pm Reductio ad absurdum
Somalia is corrupt so RoR should be balanced to 1.4.8
The Somalia metaphor was off, but Hao's suggestions weren't bad IMO. Nor did he actually say "balance to 1.4.8."
Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king!

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Azarael
Posts: 5332

Re: Reintroductions and reflections.

Post#374 » Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:54 pm

Equally, a cynical person would suggest that given the amount of time required to fix every single ability bug, get the endgame sorted, etc., the project could die before anything were ever changed from 1.4.8. An especially cynical person might suggest that that would suit certain people just fine.

This post, and reconciliation, has limits. The problem has been that players have been talked down to, treated badly and occasionally banned on spurious grounds. I did not intend whatsoever that this should be used as a springboard to suggest or persuade the team that they need to surrender their agency completely - because that's a mug's game. We are still the ones putting the work in - the work that is such an obstacle that, I must repeat, our work had to be stolen for a competitor to us to actually arise - and during my year out, it was very much central in my mind that I did not benefit whatsoever in my personal life from what I did on this project. We are not going to the opposite extreme, which is that the community (or the elite of the community) run the project.

The team will listen to the best way to sail the ship to its intended destination. The team will not accept sailing to a different destination entirely.

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dur3al
Posts: 251

Re: Reintroductions and reflections.

Post#375 » Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:08 pm

Azarael wrote: Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:54 pm Equally, a cynical person would suggest that given the amount of time required to fix every single ability bug, get the endgame sorted, etc., the project could die before anything were ever changed from 1.4.8. An especially cynical person might suggest that that would suit certain people just fine.

This post, and reconciliation, has limits. The problem has been that players have been talked down to, treated badly and occasionally banned on spurious grounds. I did not intend whatsoever that this should be used as a springboard to suggest or persuade the team that they need to surrender their agency. We are not going to the opposite extreme, which is that the community (or the elite of the community) run the project.

I agree with you there when you also mention to get the endgame sorted, since I'm guessing its a major time consuming task, taking into account how long we've had T4 here in RoR but not city of fortresses.

But I don't think its the same for class skills & tactics - Its only logical to assume that the same amount of work & time that it takes to change and edit skills and tactics - it should also take to test them and see if their current value and mechanics are working properly, and if not - fix them (bug tracker should also cut this time since players are reporting non working stuff anyway). At the very least, a very similar time consuming task anyway.. I could be completely mistaken of course since I can't see from an inside point of view, but in this instance I don't think I am.

A small example that comes to mind was when my guild group was testing ways to counter the proc meta back in the day, specifically against BW buffs, for that we tested the Save me Hide skill from BO, which if my memory serves right, it should grant some magical protection. After some tests we concluded that it wasn't working properly and most importantly not affecting the damage done by the buff's proc, so we made a report in the bug tracker.. I haven't checked or even played this game in 2 years, but quite honestly I wouldn't be surprised its still not working as it properly should. In this example it directly affects how people could potentially help finding a work around against the proc meta etc.
Martyr's Square: Sync & Nerfedbuttons - enigma
Martyr's Square: Dureal & Method - Disrespect/It's Orz again
Badlands: Dureal & Alatheus - Exo
Karak-Norn: Sejanus - Blitz/Elementz

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dur3al
Posts: 251

Re: Reintroductions and reflections.

Post#376 » Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:36 pm

Azarael wrote: Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:54 pm The team will listen to the best way to sail the ship to its intended destination. The team will not accept sailing to a different destination entirely.
That's fine and quite honestly what I expect anyway.

But what is the intended destination?

Regarding balance - I believe it is already a step in the right direction when you say what is your current vision of the class before talking actual changes. I should add you should also put what should be the intended strength and weakness of each class/spec too - that's a suggestion.

Regarding the endgame - As I heard the next steps will be into fortresses and city sieges. A few discussion points comes to mind that would be nice to have transparency and dialogue since now, so nothing comes as a surprise for the community:

How do you envision to deal with issues we had back in live, such as people entering and leaving instances trying only to find empty ones?
How do you plan to deal when whole warband premades ends up fighting pugs?
People will obviously be doing this end-game content for the reward, in that example, was the sovereign gear, I believe its common knowledge (taking into account current affairs) that the gear stats will be toned down to match current game play, but how about set bonus abilities? Will they be removed or kept?

Its obviously not necessary to try and find an answer to everything now, especially since you've probably not even worked towards that end yet, but would be good to let people know before hand what would be the intended direction & changes comparable to live (I'm guessing live is the "different destination entirely" you were talking about, or perhaps not?).
Martyr's Square: Sync & Nerfedbuttons - enigma
Martyr's Square: Dureal & Method - Disrespect/It's Orz again
Badlands: Dureal & Alatheus - Exo
Karak-Norn: Sejanus - Blitz/Elementz

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Azarael
Posts: 5332

Re: Reintroductions and reflections.

Post#377 » Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:41 pm

I plan to do what I always do, which is take it as it comes. Right now I'm far more concerned about the present issues, plus the destabilization that will be caused if Invader level gear and above is plonked in without a stabilizer mechanic. I had hoped that issue wouldn't rear its disgusting head until later. I was wrong.

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Telen
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Re: Reintroductions and reflections.

Post#378 » Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:41 pm

dur3al wrote: Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:45 pm Somalia is comparable in the sense that...
Millennials are funny. The comparison is patently absurd.
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dur3al
Posts: 251

Re: Reintroductions and reflections.

Post#379 » Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:01 pm

Telen wrote: Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:41 pm
dur3al wrote: Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:45 pm Somalia is comparable in the sense that...
Millennials are funny. The comparison is patently absurd.

Is it? If instead of Somalia he would've used the Galactic Empire from Star Wars would it be more absurd or less absurd? Would've made more sense that instead of Somalia he would've used the example of another private project of a discontinued game that only he knows about? So that you could question whether that project really exists or not?

Bottom line is, you're just trying to pick into one thing he used to format his argument (its not the base of his argument) and is using to dismiss all of his points, aka Cherry picking. He could've rephrased the whole thing without the Somalia part anyway.

GodlessCrom wrote: Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:46 pm
Telen wrote: Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:17 pm Reductio ad absurdum
Somalia is corrupt so RoR should be balanced to 1.4.8
The Somalia metaphor was off, but Hao's suggestions weren't bad IMO. Nor did he actually say "balance to 1.4.8."

See? this guy gets it.


As to why you think millennials are funny, why do you think that? Quite honestly I can't really see much difference - most people just seem "funny" (as in stupid, in this case) to me most of the time, regardless of age in which one was born.
Martyr's Square: Sync & Nerfedbuttons - enigma
Martyr's Square: Dureal & Method - Disrespect/It's Orz again
Badlands: Dureal & Alatheus - Exo
Karak-Norn: Sejanus - Blitz/Elementz

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Ugle
Posts: 589

Re: Reintroductions and reflections.

Post#380 » Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:29 pm

Azarael wrote: Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:41 pm I plan to do what I always do, which is take it as it comes. Right now I'm far more concerned about the present issues, plus the destabilization that will be caused if Invader level gear and above is plonked in without a stabilizer mechanic. I had hoped that issue wouldn't rear its disgusting head until later. I was wrong.
I only read:

Fortresses and invader is right around the corner!
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