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oaliaen
Posts: 1201

Re: Balance Discussion Forum v3

Post#101 » Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:09 pm

something is wrong when a mellee rdps perform better than real mellee classes.. SH got cutted in half already .But and the other (ASW) ?
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Akalukz
Posts: 1587

Re: Balance Discussion Forum v3

Post#102 » Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:16 pm

you have to admit some of the "side exclusive" skills are a bit of an issue. I personally feel that the primary issues still lies in gear/renown point/skill point issues. The game was much more enjoyable for probably all at 40/40.
-= Agony =-

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Manatikik
Posts: 1249

Re: Balance Discussion Forum v3

Post#103 » Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:39 pm

oaliaen wrote: Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:09 pm something is wrong when a mellee rdps perform better than real mellee classes.. SH got cutted in half already .But and the other (ASW) ?

That’s kind of misrepresenting the case by a bit though. ASW is highly effective when RR 70+ with BiS gear as a ST DPS/Debuffer in small scale situations. MSH was doing good damage from a low RR and gear threshold with good utility in large scale situations and also being good at ST damage in a small scale situation as well.

Sure, ASW is strong but it’s far from broken and with a couple small tweaks is the face of balance from a small scale perspective while still being utterly trash in large scale applications.


And the whole ‘perform better in melee’ shtick needs to go; unless you are fighting in a decent 6v6 (which 99.9% of the server does not in any shape, way, or form) then Scout/Big Shootin’ is just as effective in ST damage as Assault/Stabbin’. Though SH/SW are both utterly worthless as RDPS in WB’s (with SH being less worthless due to its Big Shootin’ m4).
<Montague><Capulet>

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Akalukz
Posts: 1587

Re: Balance Discussion Forum v3

Post#104 » Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:35 pm

Manatikik wrote: Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:39 pm
oaliaen wrote: Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:09 pm something is wrong when a mellee rdps perform better than real mellee classes.. SH got cutted in half already .But and the other (ASW) ?

That’s kind of misrepresenting the case by a bit though. ASW is highly effective when RR 70+ with BiS gear as a ST DPS/Debuffer in small scale situations. MSH was doing good damage from a low RR and gear threshold with good utility in large scale situations and also being good at ST damage in a small scale situation as well.

.............................

Which goes back to gear/renown points/bonus mastery points.
-= Agony =-

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Manatikik
Posts: 1249

Re: Balance Discussion Forum v3

Post#105 » Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:39 pm

Akalukz wrote: Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:35 pm
Manatikik wrote: Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:39 pm
oaliaen wrote: Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:09 pm something is wrong when a mellee rdps perform better than real mellee classes.. SH got cutted in half already .But and the other (ASW) ?

That’s kind of misrepresenting the case by a bit though. ASW is highly effective when RR 70+ with BiS gear as a ST DPS/Debuffer in small scale situations. MSH was doing good damage from a low RR and gear threshold with good utility in large scale situations and also being good at ST damage in a small scale situation as well.

.............................

Which goes back to gear/renown points/bonus mastery points.
Aka Progression which is a key component of an MMO...
<Montague><Capulet>

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TenTonHammer
Posts: 3807

Re: Balance Discussion Forum v3

Post#106 » Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:25 pm

Manatikik wrote: Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:39 pm


That’s kind of misrepresenting the case by a bit though. ASW is highly effective when RR 70+ with BiS gear as a ST DPS/Debuffer in small scale situations. MSH was doing good damage from a low RR and gear threshold with good utility in large scale situations and also being good at ST damage in a small scale situation as well.

Sure, ASW is strong but it’s far from broken and with a couple small tweaks is the face of balance from a small scale perspective while still being utterly trash in large scale applications.


And the whole ‘perform better in melee’ shtick needs to go; unless you are fighting in a decent 6v6 (which 99.9% of the server does not in any shape, way, or form) then Scout/Big Shootin’ is just as effective in ST damage as Assault/Stabbin’. Though SH/SW are both utterly worthless as RDPS in WB’s (with SH being less worthless due to its Big Shootin’ m4).
The whole "strong in small scale so **** in orvr" mentality needs to go cause that's just lazy balancing that pigeon holes classes and furthermore a real problem when classes like rdps herder or ASW etc need a certain renown rank to function and indicates that the trees need to be adjusted so that certain tools can be reached earlier

you shouldnt have to grind out a class to 70rr just to make a spec work
Akalukz wrote: Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:35 pm

Which goes back to gear/renown points/bonus mastery points.
No, Gear should never factor into class balance

A class, spec or playstyle should be viable and strong on their own, not enabled by some crutch set
Manatikik wrote: Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:39 pm
Aka Progression which is a key component of an MMO...
Progression of sets should not affect the viability of a class or spec
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Manatikik
Posts: 1249

Re: Balance Discussion Forum v3

Post#107 » Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:52 pm

TenTonHammer wrote: Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:25 pm
Manatikik wrote: Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:39 pm


That’s kind of misrepresenting the case by a bit though. ASW is highly effective when RR 70+ with BiS gear as a ST DPS/Debuffer in small scale situations. MSH was doing good damage from a low RR and gear threshold with good utility in large scale situations and also being good at ST damage in a small scale situation as well.

Sure, ASW is strong but it’s far from broken and with a couple small tweaks is the face of balance from a small scale perspective while still being utterly trash in large scale applications.


And the whole ‘perform better in melee’ shtick needs to go; unless you are fighting in a decent 6v6 (which 99.9% of the server does not in any shape, way, or form) then Scout/Big Shootin’ is just as effective in ST damage as Assault/Stabbin’. Though SH/SW are both utterly worthless as RDPS in WB’s (with SH being less worthless due to its Big Shootin’ m4).
The whole "strong in small scale so **** in orvr" mentality needs to go cause that's just lazy balancing that pigeon holes classes and furthermore a real problem when classes like rdps herder or ASW etc need a certain renown rank to function and indicates that the trees need to be adjusted so that certain tools can be reached earlier

you shouldnt have to grind out a class to 70rr just to make a spec work
Akalukz wrote: Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:35 pm

Which goes back to gear/renown points/bonus mastery points.
No, Gear should never factor into class balance

A class, spec or playstyle should be viable and strong on their own, not enabled by some crutch set
Manatikik wrote: Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:39 pm
Aka Progression which is a key component of an MMO...
Progression of sets should not affect the viability of a class or spec

Why shouldn’t RR/Gear affect the viability of a spec?
<Montague><Capulet>

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TenTonHammer
Posts: 3807

Re: Balance Discussion Forum v3

Post#108 » Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:22 pm

Manatikik wrote: Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:52 pm

Why shouldn’t RR/Gear affect the viability of a spec?
Firstly you shouldnt have to wait till your 10 rr lvls from the rr lvl cap in order to have all the tools/abilites necessary to make a spec work like in the case of rSH for example

secondly becuase sets come and go, they get changed, they get nerfed you firstly want something that inconsistent to determine the effectiveness or factor into the balance of a class?

Which gear do you want to balance for? conq? vanq? invader? warlord? TOVL? Off/def Sov? 2/3/4/5/6 piece bonuses?

they should not enable a class because if a spec has to rely on outside elements then that in an indicator of a weak spec

for example 2H chosen is **** dumpster tier with pitiful damage that is non-viable unless enabled to some extent by bloodlord? Or how there is a real power difference between a slayer/choppa who does or does not have full invader, which of those do you want to balance for?

Class balance should focus entirely on the classes themselves and not outside factors like sets
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drmordread
Suspended
Posts: 916

Re: Balance Discussion Forum v3

Post#109 » Mon Oct 07, 2019 11:54 pm

simtex wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 9:38 am Too bad most proposals turn into shitstorms with complete pugs giving their '2cents', those same people who ride the blob every evening and get farmed like tards anytime they're left outside said blob.

GL though
Speaking as a complete pug, we make up the majority of the population and always will. I am glad that we have a chance to add our 2 cents. After all it is we that actually have to play hard and we who are affected the most by even the smallest change. For unlike you elitist (to use the same word you did) "tards", we do not use a regular group to carry us and prop us pop and earn our RR for us.
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Akalukz
Posts: 1587

Re: Balance Discussion Forum v3

Post#110 » Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:11 am

TenTonHammer wrote: Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:22 pm
Manatikik wrote: Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:52 pm

Why shouldn’t RR/Gear affect the viability of a spec?
Firstly you shouldnt have to wait till your 10 rr lvls from the rr lvl cap in order to have all the tools/abilites necessary to make a spec work like in the case of rSH for example

secondly becuase sets come and go, they get changed, they get nerfed you firstly want something that inconsistent to determine the effectiveness or factor into the balance of a class?

Which gear do you want to balance for? conq? vanq? invader? warlord? TOVL? Off/def Sov? 2/3/4/5/6 piece bonuses?

they should not enable a class because if a spec has to rely on outside elements then that in an indicator of a weak spec

for example 2H chosen is **** dumpster tier with pitiful damage that is non-viable unless enabled to some extent by bloodlord? Or how there is a real power difference between a slayer/choppa who does or does not have full invader, which of those do you want to balance for?

Class balance should focus entirely on the classes themselves and not outside factors like sets

Agreed, that's why i think the extra renown points (buffs) / extra mastery points / extra damage/defense from advanced renown and gear sets help widen the spec power which in turns highlights class or spec balance issues....fine without thosse things, totally out of whack with them. So you have to in a sense be aware of the "outside factors" otherwise you throw the careful classs balance out to extremes.
-= Agony =-

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